Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated offensively?

[theplasticman]

Not at all. I just think home run hitters tend to be a bit more overvalued in a sense. Which is exactly why I sorta punt HR in fantasy baseball and have won 4 of the last 6 years :lol:

 

[Zan]

Nah man he's pretty good.

zan

 

[darocker80]

Nah man he's pretty good.

zan

This

 

[fitefansho]

Add up what he gets for hits and Japan with what he gets in the MLB, maybe he breaks Rose record, unofficially anyway but still...

Ichiro was and is HOBBY Gold. A great hitter.

Maybe even the best. I want more Ichiro RCs! ::facepalm::

 

[Topnotchsy]

Not at all. I just think home run hitters tend to be a bit more overvalued in a sense. Which is exactly why I sorta punt HR in fantasy baseball and have won 4 of the last 6 years :lol:

That is because in many fantasy leagues homeruns are underrated. A home run scores a run, a single, double or triple does not necessarily.

Are you serious with this thread? How is Ichiro overrated offensively? Put him on an above average team and he is right up there with Pujols. If he sacrificed AVG for power he would hit 30+ per year.

Out of curiosity, have you read all the numbers that were presented? The statistics show that Ichiro is not close to the offensive player that Pujols is, and we can talk "what if's" all day, but they mean nothing when it comes to actual performance.

 

[hive17]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Also, Ichiro is a First-ballot HoF'er, and with the exception of Jeter, no one on that list is even in the HoF discussion. So comparing him to those players based on whatever metric you want to use doesn't have anything to do with how he's "rated", since I would think the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better.

You are refuting all the statistical evidence based on the fact that "the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better?" That's pretty weak, especially since the numbers pretty clearly show that most if not all of those players to your line-up would improve your chances of winning more than adding Ichiro.

I know it's not the popular position, but until someone uses stats to refute it, I don't it any other way.

You asked how he was "rated", not how he was compared statistically to other players. Raw numbers only allow us to compare one thing to another. We "rate" people based on multiple aspects of their game. And the people that are doing it are in fact sportswriters and fans. We rate them and order them in preference of who we'd put into the Hall of Fame; Ichiro goes in without a second thought and, like I said, besides Jeter, none of those guys are even close.

So basically, you asked a pretty weak question, since if people aren't using the exact stats that YOU feel they should, they are wrong.

 

[Anthony K.]

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. 24th active is not all that impressive (especially since most would consider him a top 10 hitter.)
2. To ignore the fact that Pujols does more to help his team win because he hits for power seems very hard to understand. Are you saying that his homeruns do not help his team win more games?
3. Based on what you are saying I assume you don't ever compare lefty pitchers with righties? Outfielders with infielders? Obviously all players play the game differently, but the way to win a game is the same as it always has been, by scoring more runs than the opponent, and one can still objectively gauge who provides his team more in that area.

Take out everyone who has more at bats then him CURRENTLY playing and Ichiro sits at 9th overall. Now, you can take out 3 of the 9, because they actually played more than 100 games BEFORE Ichiro started playing in America, but have lost plenty of time to injuries. Now, Ichiro sits at 6th overall.

The 5 in front of him? Pujols, Holliday, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright and Adam Dunn. Also, he is the only player in the top 32 of ACTIVE OBP that has less than 117 home runs.

As for the OVERALL argument, shouldn't we be comparing Ichiro's overall stats to those of the same time frame he has played in - 2001 to now?

Why reward players who have played in the US longer (like having Helton, Giambi, Thome and Jim Edmonds higher on the active WAR list, though, if only from 2001 until the present, I am sure his WAR is higher than those 4, for example) and negatively impact Ichiro, because he has only played in 9 full seasons?

 

[Topnotchsy]

You asked how he was "rated", not how he was compared statistically to other players. Raw numbers only allow us to compare one thing to another. We "rate" people based on multiple aspects of their game. And the people that are doing it are in fact sportswriters and fans. We rate them and order them in preference of who we'd put into the Hall of Fame; Ichiro goes in without a second thought and, like I said, besides Jeter, none of those guys are even close.

So basically, you asked a pretty weak question, since if people aren't using the exact stats that YOU feel they should, they are wrong.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering to answer this post, but I will point out that I was very clear about what I meant in the opening post:

No time to write up my whole argument, but based on value to a team, it seems to be he is very overrated.

And as for using the "stats I like" I simply used the stats that best indicate a player's value to his team. In 7 pages no one has debated that there are better metrics, feel free to point some out.

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. 24th active is not all that impressive (especially since most would consider him a top 10 hitter.)
2. To ignore the fact that Pujols does more to help his team win because he hits for power seems very hard to understand. Are you saying that his homeruns do not help his team win more games?
3. Based on what you are saying I assume you don't ever compare lefty pitchers with righties? Outfielders with infielders? Obviously all players play the game differently, but the way to win a game is the same as it always has been, by scoring more runs than the opponent, and one can still objectively gauge who provides his team more in that area.

Take out everyone who has more at bats then him CURRENTLY playing and Ichiro sits at 9th overall. Now, you can take out 3 of the 9, because they actually played more than 100 games BEFORE Ichiro started playing in America, but have lost plenty of time to injuries. Now, Ichiro sits at 6th overall.

The 5 in front of him? Pujols, Holliday, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright and Adam Dunn. Also, he is the only player in the top 32 of ACTIVE OBP that has less than 117 home runs.

As for the OVERALL argument, shouldn't we be comparing Ichiro's overall stats to those of the same time frame he has played in - 2001 to now?

Why reward players who have played in the US longer (like having Helton, Giambi, Thome and Jim Edmonds higher on the active WAR list, though, if only from 2001 until the present, I am sure his WAR is higher than those 4, for example) and negatively impact Ichiro, because he has only played in 9 full seasons?

24th all time referred to OBP not WAR. Length of career is not relevant.

 

[Anthony K.]

You asked how he was "rated", not how he was compared statistically to other players. Raw numbers only allow us to compare one thing to another. We "rate" people based on multiple aspects of their game. And the people that are doing it are in fact sportswriters and fans. We rate them and order them in preference of who we'd put into the Hall of Fame; Ichiro goes in without a second thought and, like I said, besides Jeter, none of those guys are even close.

So basically, you asked a pretty weak question, since if people aren't using the exact stats that YOU feel they should, they are wrong.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering to answer this post, but I will point out that I was very clear about what I meant in the opening post:

No time to write up my whole argument, but based on value to a team, it seems to be he is very overrated.

And as for using the "stats I like" I simply used the stats that best indicate a player's value to his team. In 7 pages no one has debated that there are better metrics, feel free to point some out.

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. 24th active is not all that impressive (especially since most would consider him a top 10 hitter.)
2. To ignore the fact that Pujols does more to help his team win because he hits for power seems very hard to understand. Are you saying that his homeruns do not help his team win more games?
3. Based on what you are saying I assume you don't ever compare lefty pitchers with righties? Outfielders with infielders? Obviously all players play the game differently, but the way to win a game is the same as it always has been, by scoring more runs than the opponent, and one can still objectively gauge who provides his team more in that area.

Take out everyone who has more at bats then him CURRENTLY playing and Ichiro sits at 9th overall. Now, you can take out 3 of the 9, because they actually played more than 100 games BEFORE Ichiro started playing in America, but have lost plenty of time to injuries. Now, Ichiro sits at 6th overall.

The 5 in front of him? Pujols, Holliday, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright and Adam Dunn. Also, he is the only player in the top 32 of ACTIVE OBP that has less than 117 home runs.

As for the OVERALL argument, shouldn't we be comparing Ichiro's overall stats to those of the same time frame he has played in - 2001 to now?

Why reward players who have played in the US longer (like having Helton, Giambi, Thome and Jim Edmonds higher on the active WAR list, though, if only from 2001 until the present, I am sure his WAR is higher than those 4, for example) and negatively impact Ichiro, because he has only played in 9 full seasons?

24th all time referred to OBP not WAR. Length of career is not relevant.

I know it was referring to OBP, as that is the stat I was referencing.

Length of career is relevant, especially since he didn't hit the American borders until he turned 27.

But, I have chosen no sides, nor will I.

We can argue about how "over rated" he is, when he gets his spot in Cooperstown.

 

[Topnotchsy]

You asked how he was "rated", not how he was compared statistically to other players. Raw numbers only allow us to compare one thing to another. We "rate" people based on multiple aspects of their game. And the people that are doing it are in fact sportswriters and fans. We rate them and order them in preference of who we'd put into the Hall of Fame; Ichiro goes in without a second thought and, like I said, besides Jeter, none of those guys are even close.

So basically, you asked a pretty weak question, since if people aren't using the exact stats that YOU feel they should, they are wrong.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering to answer this post, but I will point out that I was very clear about what I meant in the opening post:

No time to write up my whole argument, but based on value to a team, it seems to be he is very overrated.

And as for using the "stats I like" I simply used the stats that best indicate a player's value to his team. In 7 pages no one has debated that there are better metrics, feel free to point some out.


[quote="Anthony K.":2rray3z1]

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. 24th active is not all that impressive (especially since most would consider him a top 10 hitter.)
2. To ignore the fact that Pujols does more to help his team win because he hits for power seems very hard to understand. Are you saying that his homeruns do not help his team win more games?
3. Based on what you are saying I assume you don't ever compare lefty pitchers with righties? Outfielders with infielders? Obviously all players play the game differently, but the way to win a game is the same as it always has been, by scoring more runs than the opponent, and one can still objectively gauge who provides his team more in that area.

Take out everyone who has more at bats then him CURRENTLY playing and Ichiro sits at 9th overall. Now, you can take out 3 of the 9, because they actually played more than 100 games BEFORE Ichiro started playing in America, but have lost plenty of time to injuries. Now, Ichiro sits at 6th overall.

The 5 in front of him? Pujols, Holliday, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright and Adam Dunn. Also, he is the only player in the top 32 of ACTIVE OBP that has less than 117 home runs.

As for the OVERALL argument, shouldn't we be comparing Ichiro's overall stats to those of the same time frame he has played in - 2001 to now?

Why reward players who have played in the US longer (like having Helton, Giambi, Thome and Jim Edmonds higher on the active WAR list, though, if only from 2001 until the present, I am sure his WAR is higher than those 4, for example) and negatively impact Ichiro, because he has only played in 9 full seasons?

24th all time referred to OBP not WAR. Length of career is not relevant.

I know it was referring to OBP, as that is the stat I was referencing.

Length of career is relevant, especially since he didn't hit the American borders until he turned 27.

But, I have chosen no sides, nor will I.

We can argue about how "over rated" he is, when he gets his spot in Cooperstown.[/quote:2rray3z1]
How would length of career affect OBP? In fact I would argue (as earlier posters have mentioned) that the longer a player can maintain a high OBP, the better he is. One could argue about what Ichiro has done in Japan and how to evaluate it, but considering no one includes Japanese stats when evaluating guys like Hideki Irabu, Hideki Matsui or Kaz Matsui I would say that it plays very little role in actual analysis and is just something pull out with Ichiro (similar to mentioning that he hits a lot of homers in batting practice) because the actual stats are just not as impressive as the level that people view him.

I guess a true historian might include Japanese stats, but I find them hard to really consider in this case (not saying they aren't legit stats.)

 

[hive17]

You asked how he was "rated", not how he was compared statistically to other players. Raw numbers only allow us to compare one thing to another. We "rate" people based on multiple aspects of their game. And the people that are doing it are in fact sportswriters and fans. We rate them and order them in preference of who we'd put into the Hall of Fame; Ichiro goes in without a second thought and, like I said, besides Jeter, none of those guys are even close.

So basically, you asked a pretty weak question, since if people aren't using the exact stats that YOU feel they should, they are wrong.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering to answer this post, but I will point out that I was very clear about what I meant in the opening post:

No time to write up my whole argument, but based on value to a team, it seems to be he is very overrated.

And as for using the "stats I like" I simply used the stats that best indicate a player's value to his team. In 7 pages no one has debated that there are better metrics, feel free to point some out.

So a superior defensive, high On-Base hitter is less valuable than someone who just hits a lot of home runs? You're saying that your team would be better with a bunch of slower, power-hitting types? That seems like a team bound for a bunch of XBH's allowed, GIDPs and K's.

I think I understand the difference in our viewing of your question. I think you think "contact/OBP/speed/defense" guys are generally overrated in the game as a whole. Ichiro is the best of that type of player by far. So your not so much saying that Ichiro is overrated (b/c he's 100-all-time talent), but that what he brings to a team is. Does that make sense?

 

[Topnotchsy]

So a superior defensive, high On-Base hitter is less valuable than someone who just hits a lot of home runs? You're saying that your team would be better with a bunch of slower, power-hitting types? That seems like a team bound for a bunch of XBH's allowed, GIDPs and K's.

I think I understand the difference in our viewing of your question. I think you think "contact/OBP/speed/defense" guys are generally overrated in the game as a whole. Ichiro is the best of that type of player by far. So your not so much saying that Ichiro is overrated (b/c he's 100-all-time talent), but that what he brings to a team is. Does that make sense?

I avoided defense in the thread. As the title mentions, I focused on offense. I do think that in 99 cases out of 100 a power hitter will be more valuable than a lead-off hitter. The walks they draw provide a high OBP, and their power numbers almost always provide more run-scoring potential than speed guys.

With that said, I do think people overvalue defense a bit sometimes. According to BP, Ichiro saved 8 runs in the field last season over the average right fielder. He's one of the best, and still 8 runs is not all that much.

Ichiro is definitely one of the best lead-off hitters of the last decade (Jeter if you consider him a lead-off guy was probably more helpful to his team.) That said, he's not worth as much to his team offensively as say a Pujols, Cabrera or even a Youkilis.

 

[hive17]

So a superior defensive, high On-Base hitter is less valuable than someone who just hits a lot of home runs? You're saying that your team would be better with a bunch of slower, power-hitting types? That seems like a team bound for a bunch of XBH's allowed, GIDPs and K's.

I think I understand the difference in our viewing of your question. I think you think "contact/OBP/speed/defense" guys are generally overrated in the game as a whole. Ichiro is the best of that type of player by far. So your not so much saying that Ichiro is overrated (b/c he's 100-all-time talent), but that what he brings to a team is. Does that make sense?

I avoided defense in the thread. As the title mentions, I focused on offense. I do think that in 99 cases out of 100 a power hitter will be more valuable than a lead-off hitter. The walks they draw provide a high OBP, and their power numbers almost always provide more run-scoring potential than speed guys.

With that said, I do think people overvalue defense a bit sometimes. According to BP, Ichiro saved 8 runs in the field last season over the average right fielder. He's one of the best, and still 8 runs is not all that much.

Ichiro is definitely one of the best lead-off hitters of the last decade (Jeter if you consider him a lead-off guy was probably more helpful to his team.) That said, he's not worth as much to his team offensively as say a Pujols, Cabrera or even a Youkilis.

You've refined your arguement pretty well. Just remember, unless it's a home run, the guy at the plate and the team don't get ANY runs unless someone can get on base ahead of them. One could even argue that Ichiro being on-base 250+ times is that many chances for the team to score a run; the power guy at the plate technically has MUCH lower chance to score a run if the bases are empty (notice I said "chance", not "average"). I would think that any run scored not on a HR (which is the lion share of the runs in many games) are the result of equal parts hitter and runner.

 

[darocker80]

The Giants need offense badly. However i'll take ichiro over youkilis any day.

now over pujols...that is a different story