Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated offensively?

[Sly]

Let me also add that if your expectation is that Ichiro does what Pujols does...then absolutely he's over-rated. But then again, if you think Ichiro and Pujols should be doing the same thing, you have a VERY skewed perception of baseball.

 

[pigskincardboard]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Are you saying we should get rid of stats like batting average and homeruns because they don't matter? The reality is that we stats define baseball more than any other sport

As a math guy, I originally lauded the "moneyball" movement and the disinclination to trust scouting over statistical analysis. However, it has led to an over-correction in which stat heads fail to account for the charm of the sport. I don't think that Ichiro is overrated, stats be damned. I know that when I have seen him play in person, everyone in the stadium sits up when he comes to bat, because they wanna watch that shat. It doesn't happen when I've seen Adam Dunn. Baseball is also best enjoyed through disagreement and argumentation, so feel free to keep "rating" Dunn over Ichiro because the stats tell you to. I know which of those two is going into the Hall of FAME and why.

and the reason Ichiro is so highly rated is not because people watching him are so impressed, it is because they use stats like hits and glorify them despite limited real value in such stats/quote]

Well said...he's easily one of the best OF of all time.

Nah...he's one of the best all-around baseball players I've ever seen. He's also a cool ass dude.

 

[Topnotchsy]

At the end of the day one needs to DEFINE where he's overrated.

"Offensively" means nothing. Especially compared to those guys with a higher career OBP. Those are guys who have generally hit in the middle of a batting order and have "big name" guys hitting above or below them, so they are generally GOING to walk more. Ichiro is a lead-off hitter, and of those 23 ahead of him on that OBP list...guess how many are lead-off hitters...ZERO!!!

So basically no lead-off hitter gets on base more than Ichiro does...which is the job of a lead-off hitter. In fact, the only one close that can be considered a lead-off hitter is Luis Castillo at #37.

So as a lead-off hitter (which is his job) he:

Has the highest OBP of all active players
Scores 100+ runs a season
Steals 30+ bases a season
Still drives in nearly 60 runs a season
Has only hit into 45 double plays in 9+ seasons

And for being a lead-off hitter, the guy has a career .337 average with RISP and a .348 average with 2 outs and RISP.

What more does one want from a lead-off hitter?? And for the person who said that when he can't beat out those infield singles, he'll be useless...well, that may be the case, but until that day, he's not useless, and he's damn good at what he does. He's 36 and hasn't shown a single bit of slowing down.

When did someone decide that a lead-off hitter has a different job than anyone else? A lead-off hitters job, like anyone else at the plate is to score the maximum amount of runs. While he might be batting in a place that caters to his strengths, that does not negate the value of a homerun or extra base hit.

And to even consider saying that the reason he does not walk much is because he is not in the middle of the line-up is worth about as much as those who say he could hit 40 homers "if he wanted to."

Fact is that he is not as valuable a hitter as many others in the game, yet he is viewed as one of the absolute best.

Seriously?? A lead-off hitter has ALWAYS had a different role. His role is to get on base, while a clean-up hitters role is to drive them in. You're telling me that Ichiro and Pujols both have the same job??

Either way, the guy ranks 26th among active players in Times on Base, and the ONLY guy above him who has not played more seasons than Ichiro...Pujols. And most of the guys above him have 3-5 seasons on Ichiro, so please again explain how he doesn't get on base as much as he should.

At the end of the day, the bolded statement above once again proves my original point. People can't past the fact that there is more to baseball than home runs and power. He bats in the order that fits his strengths, because EVERY PLAYER has different strengths. And the job that he is expected to do (get on base, steal bases, score runs), NO ONE in that role does that better, and if you can't accept that different players have different roles, than this entire discussion is moot...

Umm, are you watching a different game than I do? In the game I watch a run is a run is a run, and the only reason they have "lead-off" hitters is because putting weaker hitters in front of the power hitters offers a way to get runs home that would not get there otherwise because of the weakness of the leadoff hitter (namely, the lack of power.)

Meanwhile you use a very elementary stat "getting on base" and ignore the much more practical stat OBP, that tells the same story, but also considers how many outs are made. It is pretty safe to say that counting the number of times a player reaches base without considering other factors (like how many times he got out) is a pretty unintelligent way to analyze the numbers.

 

[Sly]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Actually since this discussion is strictly based on offense...comparing him to Magglio Ordonez is stupid. One is a power hitter who drives in runs, while the other is a contact hitter who gets on base and scores runs.

I mean really "no such thing as a leadoff hitter"...then please explain why there is strategy in putting together a batting order. I suppose there is no such thing as a clean-up hitter either. Hell, let's just bat Juan Pierre in the four-hole...it apparently doesn't matter.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Someone should start another "Jeter is overrated" thread. Those are always excellent and exquisite wastes-of-time.

 

[sportscardtheory]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Are you saying we should get rid of stats like batting average and homeruns because they don't matter? The reality is that we stats define baseball more than any other sport

As a math guy, I originally lauded the "moneyball" movement and the disinclination to trust scouting over statistical analysis. However, it has led to an over-correction in which stat heads fail to account for the charm of the sport. I don't think that Ichiro is overrated, stats be damned. I know that when I have seen him play in person, everyone in the stadium sits up when he comes to bat, because they wanna watch that shat. It doesn't happen when I've seen Adam Dunn. Baseball is also best enjoyed through disagreement and argumentation, so feel free to keep "rating" Dunn over Ichiro because the stats tell you to. I know which of those two is going into the Hall of FAME and why.

[/quote]
Not sure if you notice but my entire argument is predicated on his rating as compared to how much he helps his team. What the fans think, how many people come to the game and how much people pay for an autograph are completely irrelevant to that equation. Yes, to his team Adam Dunn is almost unquestionably a more valuable hitter than Ichiro. The difference in their offensive win percentage is very big.

And to those disagreeing on whether there is such a thing as a lead-off hitter or not... No one is arguing that there is a set idea for what a batting order should be, but the point is that the lead-off hitter is no different than anyone else in that his job is to facilitate scoring runs. The managers put speed guys at the top because the power guys will then knock them in, but it does not mean they can not be compared to other style hitters to compare who is more valuable. In the end the gauge is the same.

 

[kdailey4315]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

But you actually think Andruw Jones is a better fielder than Ichiro so most will take this with a grain of salt. Also your 100% wrong. Defensively he should be compared with those at this same position. Offensively he should be compared to the spot where he hits. Unfortunately for you and the OP he's better than everyone else when you do it that way.

 

[Sly]

At the end of the day one needs to DEFINE where he's overrated.

"Offensively" means nothing. Especially compared to those guys with a higher career OBP. Those are guys who have generally hit in the middle of a batting order and have "big name" guys hitting above or below them, so they are generally GOING to walk more. Ichiro is a lead-off hitter, and of those 23 ahead of him on that OBP list...guess how many are lead-off hitters...ZERO!!!

So basically no lead-off hitter gets on base more than Ichiro does...which is the job of a lead-off hitter. In fact, the only one close that can be considered a lead-off hitter is Luis Castillo at #37.

So as a lead-off hitter (which is his job) he:

Has the highest OBP of all active players
Scores 100+ runs a season
Steals 30+ bases a season
Still drives in nearly 60 runs a season
Has only hit into 45 double plays in 9+ seasons

And for being a lead-off hitter, the guy has a career .337 average with RISP and a .348 average with 2 outs and RISP.

What more does one want from a lead-off hitter?? And for the person who said that when he can't beat out those infield singles, he'll be useless...well, that may be the case, but until that day, he's not useless, and he's damn good at what he does. He's 36 and hasn't shown a single bit of slowing down.

When did someone decide that a lead-off hitter has a different job than anyone else? A lead-off hitters job, like anyone else at the plate is to score the maximum amount of runs. While he might be batting in a place that caters to his strengths, that does not negate the value of a homerun or extra base hit.

And to even consider saying that the reason he does not walk much is because he is not in the middle of the line-up is worth about as much as those who say he could hit 40 homers "if he wanted to."

Fact is that he is not as valuable a hitter as many others in the game, yet he is viewed as one of the absolute best.

Seriously?? A lead-off hitter has ALWAYS had a different role. His role is to get on base, while a clean-up hitters role is to drive them in. You're telling me that Ichiro and Pujols both have the same job??

Either way, the guy ranks 26th among active players in Times on Base, and the ONLY guy above him who has not played more seasons than Ichiro...Pujols. And most of the guys above him have 3-5 seasons on Ichiro, so please again explain how he doesn't get on base as much as he should.

At the end of the day, the bolded statement above once again proves my original point. People can't past the fact that there is more to baseball than home runs and power. He bats in the order that fits his strengths, because EVERY PLAYER has different strengths. And the job that he is expected to do (get on base, steal bases, score runs), NO ONE in that role does that better, and if you can't accept that different players have different roles, than this entire discussion is moot...

Umm, are you watching a different game than I do? In the game I watch a run is a run is a run, and the only reason they have "lead-off" hitters is because putting weaker hitters in front of the power hitters offers a way to get runs home that would not get there otherwise because of the weakness of the leadoff hitter (namely, the lack of power.)

Meanwhile you use a very elementary stat "getting on base" and ignore the much more practical stat OBP, that tells the same story, but also considers how many outs are made. It is pretty safe to say that counting the number of times a player reaches base without considering other factors (like how many times he got out) is a pretty unintelligent way to analyze the numbers.

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

 

[Topnotchsy]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

But you actually think Andruw Jones is a better fielder than Ichiro so most will take this with a grain of salt. Also your 100% wrong. Defensively he should be compared with those at this same position. Offensively he should be compared to the spot where he hits. Unfortunately for you and the OP he's better than everyone else when you do it that way.

Feel free to provide some logical backing to your position. (And a single video showing a single play from Ichiro is not very convincing in the context of the argument about comparing Jones and Ichiro's defensive abilities.)

 

[Topnotchsy]

First off, read my other posts, this is the first time I've pulled up "times on base" as opposed to OBP...which you seem to negate for Ichiro, nevermind the fact that he is 24th among ALL ACTIVE PLAYERS. I mean, if 24 out of 750 (25 players, 30 teams) is bad, then I guess, he's highly overrated.

Either way, as long as people continue to think that all players are created equal, then these discussions will never get past the fact that Pujols is God, A-Rod is God, Bonds was God, Manny is God...and all others are over-rated if they don't hit for power, drive in runs have have an OPS over .950.

But at the end of the day, there are different types of players, different styles of players and different specialities for players, and each of those players can be considered great for those different reasons. If people can't accept that...then everyone here is wasting their time. I'm done.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

1. 24th active is not all that impressive (especially since most would consider him a top 10 hitter.)
2. To ignore the fact that Pujols does more to help his team win because he hits for power seems very hard to understand. Are you saying that his homeruns do not help his team win more games?
3. Based on what you are saying I assume you don't ever compare lefty pitchers with righties? Outfielders with infielders? Obviously all players play the game differently, but the way to win a game is the same as it always has been, by scoring more runs than the opponent, and one can still objectively gauge who provides his team more in that area.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Not sure if you notice but my entire argument is predicated on his rating as compared to how much he helps his team. What the fans think, how many people come to the game and how much people pay for an autograph are completely irrelevant to that equation.

Except for the fact that these things define where people are "rating" him, which seems to bother you. You can point where he rates in terms of myriad statistics all night, and you can claim that statistics themselves are the only determining factor there. How can you then say he is "overrated"?

 

[donrusscrusademan]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Not sure if you notice but my entire argument is predicated on his rating as compared to how much he helps his team. What the fans think, how many people come to the game and how much people pay for an autograph are completely irrelevant to that equation.

Except for the fact that these things define where people are "rating" him, which seems to bother you. You can point where he rates in terms of myriad statistics all night, and you can claim that statistics themselves are the only determining factor there. How can you then say he is "overrated"?

exactly. this is my point.

 

[darocker80]

My prediction: Ichiro will be playing in his 40s. (Moyer, Bonds etc). He's in his mid 30s and is still super healthy and hasn't spent major time on the DL and still very fast (knocks on wood). When his speed eventually diminishes...he'll use his hand-eye coordination and the pop in his bat (that we all know he has) and becomes a .300 25HR guy and will drive in 80 RBI. Then he'll clearly be the best RF since Clemente

 

[pigskincardboard]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

And I want Pujols in every slot and position on the field (not sure if he can pitch but am willing to try if you give me 9 of him)

 

[rum151man]

April fools was last month :lol: . and I do hope your joking cause Ichiro does everything that a team asks for and needs all in one player.

1. smart/ plays the game right
2. hits for average/ on base
3. hits for some power
4.great defensive range/ arm
5.speed speed speed

just my opinion though

 

[pigskincardboard]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

And I want Pujols in every slot and position on the field (not sure if he can pitch but am willing to try if you give me 9 of him)

So you're basically saying "Ichiro is a great leadoff hitter compared to other leadoff hitters and he's a terrific defender compared to other RF?"

Do you not see the problem in that logic?

 

[rum151man]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

you dont look at a player by position, or where he bats you look at the player in whole
offensive/ defensive/ speed/ smarts/ and each of those categories can be broken down
avg./ ob%/ power/ sb/ ect. but back to the whole argument ichiro is easily top 5 best all around baseball player in the league. you dont say i would rather have this rf than that rf or 1b for 1b its the player all around i would trade my lf, cf, and rf for ichiro