Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated offensively?

[Mighty Bombjack]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

And I want Pujols in every slot and position on the field (not sure if he can pitch but am willing to try if you give me 9 of him)

So you're basically saying "Ichiro is a great leadoff hitter compared to other leadoff hitters and he's a terrific defender compared to other RF?"

Do you not see the problem in that logic?

What logic, exactly? You've given two premises, but I see no argument that you're putting into my mouth after I made a bad joke.

 

[pigskincardboard]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

you dont look at a player by position, or where he bats you look at the player in whole
offensive/ defensive/ speed/ smarts/ and each of those categories can be broken down
avg./ ob%/ power/ sb/ ect. but back to the whole argument ichiro is easily top 5 best all around baseball player in the league. you dont say i would rather have this rf than that rf or 1b for 1b its the player all around i would trade my lf, cf, and rf for ichiro

I'm including offense and defense in my evaluation and it goes like this:

If I take Ichiro out of the Mariners lineup and replace him in RF with a replacement level right fielder, how will the Mariners fair? How many runs will the fail to score. Obviously that right-fielder or center-fielder (whatever) won't fair nearly as well as Ichiro and in turn, won't bat lead off. You don't have to bat the player you replace Ichiro with 1st in the line-up. Go ahead and bat him 9th.

Now take whoever, Magglio Ordonez, out of those White Sox and Tigers line-ups (i'll stick with the Magglio reference, but don't take that literally as in right now. Just use their careers) and I'm going to replace Magglio Ordonez with that very same replacement level player. How would have those teams done?

It's a simple evaluation -- How much better or worse would the team do without the players we're comparing when we replace them with Joe Schmoe.

 

[rum151man]

[quote="Mighty Bombjack":7uzggm0j]

This is getting stupid.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEADOFF HITTER.

Ichiro is an OF/RF and should be compared to OF/RF -- Simple.

People have these ideas of what each lineup position means. Comparing Ichiro to Luis Castillo is absurd. Luis Castillo isn't a leadoff hitter, he's a second basemen.

When you compare Ichiro to any other position, first you have to compare him to his own competition.

You can't say that Ichiro is more valuable than Maggio Ordonez because he brings a certain skill-set to the table. If that were the case, there'd be an argument for Juan Pierre being useful.

Are you saying that speed and defense isn't useful. ::facepalm::

This isn't difficult guys.

It's the simple question of "Would I Rather Have Ichiro or the X other guys as my OF/RF"

People are saying, "I want Ichiro cause he's a great lead off hitter"

I'm countering with "I want Magglio because he's a guy to bat third!"

And I want Pujols in every slot and position on the field (not sure if he can pitch but am willing to try if you give me 9 of him)

So you're basically saying "Ichiro is a great leadoff hitter compared to other leadoff hitters and he's a terrific defender compared to other RF?"

Do you not see the problem in that logic?

What logic, exactly? You've given two premises, but I see no argument that you're putting into my mouth after I made a bad joke.[/quote:7uzggm0j]

yeah some people may want ichiro over magglio because hes a great leadoff hitter and better defensively than magglio. magglio is a power guy and not as good defensively they are looking at the player in whole not by where there batting in the order

 

[Pinbreaker]

Just a few thoughts about this thread and all the statistics that are being presented..

Awards mean a lot, but they don't say it all. The people in baseball mean more to me than statistics.
Ernie Banks

Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.
Vin Scully

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain

In the end the only statistic will be what the percentage of yes votes to get in the Hall of Fame..

 

[Vagrant]

I love how every Ichiro thread turns into an opportunity to slag Adam Dunn when he *may* in fact be in line for some Hall of Fame votes himself once its all said and done. If he can hit 500 clean HRs, then he certainly has a shot. Don't diss a guy because he has a career .380+ OBP. That's nonsensical.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Don't diss a guy because he has a career .380+ OBP. That's nonsensical.

Believe me, that is NOT the reason we dis the guy. But your point is well taken. I'd still bet money that he ain't gonna make the Hall (and that Ichiro will).

 

[darocker80]

why not just settle this with a poll and see what fcb decides instead of having these back and forth tennis match debates?

 

[All The Hype]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I don't think he is overrated. The ONLY thing he doesn't do well is extra-base hits and drive in runs, which isn't his job to do. He is above average in every single category besides the ones I mentioned, including defensively.

Didn't read the whole thread so this may have been mentioned, but if anyone has ever had the chance to watch, Ichiro can mash in batting practice.


He is very capable of hitting homeruns, it's just not a big part of his game because he is far better doing what he does.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Not sure if you notice but my entire argument is predicated on his rating as compared to how much he helps his team. What the fans think, how many people come to the game and how much people pay for an autograph are completely irrelevant to that equation.

Except for the fact that these things define where people are "rating" him, which seems to bother you. You can point where he rates in terms of myriad statistics all night, and you can claim that statistics themselves are the only determining factor there. How can you then say he is "overrated"?

Guess I learned something new then. I assumed that when people rate a player they do so based on performance, not marketability. I always equated those ideas to popularity, not rating.

why not just settle this with a poll and see what fcb decides instead of having these back and forth tennis match debates?

A poll offers a statistical analysis that is rarely meaningful since the vote of someone who knows nothing carries just as much weight as the vote of an expert. It's pretty clear from the post that most people do not think Ichiro is overrated, but apparently based on posts by Mighty Bombjack and others, that rating is done with the understanding that actual true performance is not the only criteria, but market perception and other factors also play a role. (If I might extrapolate I think it's safe to say based on those statements that if people who rate actually are doing so because they believe their rating is an accurate portrayal of performance, they'd be overrating him.)

 

[sportscardtheory]

I don't have a way to find out the numbers, but I am fairly certain that Ichiro actually gets on base more than any other player. His On-Base percentage is lower ONLY because he has more plate appearances than most players. That said, I would think that he actually gets on-base at a higher clip per-season than any other player in the history of the game, which makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless.

 

[Topnotchsy]

I don't have a way to find out the numbers, but I am fairly certain that Ichiro actually gets on base more than any other player. His On-Base percentage is lower ONLY because he has more plate appearances than most players. That said, I would think that he actually gets on-base at a higher clip per-season than any other player in the history of the game, which makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless.

I'd love to hear how it makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless? A .200 hitter with 1000 at bats will get have 200 hits. Does that mean he had a good season (as per your reasoning since he had 200 hits, the OBP should be irrelevant.) If he's at the plate more, it means he's making more outs. To ignore those outs and only count the times he gets on base is meaningless. (That is not to say that a player who is above average for a greater number of at-bats is not more of a help to his team than someone who did so for fewer at bats, but within reason you can't use that to ignore OBP.)

 

[chompsmcgee]

A .200 hitter with 1000 at bats will get have 200 hits. Does that mean he had a good season

I'm sure this is out of context but 1000 at bats in a season? Has anyone ever had more than 720 in a season?

So, yes, if you get 200 hits in a season you generally had a good season.

 

[bmc398]

He's a good offensive player. Moreso in 2004 than now, but I don't know of a team that would turn him away. He's certainly declined, but thats to be expected from a player his age. Shame he wasn't in MLB earlier as he'd easily be a legend. Shoot, still might be.

 

[fengzhang]

It depends on what you think defines a "successful" leadoff hitter.

To get on base? Then, yea, Ichiro is overrated. .378 OBP is good but not elite.

To score runs? Then, yea, Ichiro is overrated. He barely averages 100 runs scored despite getting 700+ plate appearances a year.

If you look at someone like Barry Bonds or Bobby Abreu, they are just as good as Ichiro at scoring runs even though they aren't leadoff hitters and don't have Ichiro's speed. OBP appears to be a better determinant of runs scored than stolen bases or batting average. So, you can probably make an argument that OBP is the single biggest stat for a leadoff hitter just as ERA is the most important stat for a pitcher. In that sense, Ichiro is overrated. For me to consider someone an elite leadoff hitter, they should have the ability to get on base at a .400 clip in their prime.

Of course, Ichiro brings a few other things to the table like excitement, good defense, a high batting average, etc. Batting titles aren't really what I'm looking for out of my leadoff hitter. But, they're a nice bonus.

 

[sportscardtheory]

I don't have a way to find out the numbers, but I am fairly certain that Ichiro actually gets on base more than any other player. His On-Base percentage is lower ONLY because he has more plate appearances than most players. That said, I would think that he actually gets on-base at a higher clip per-season than any other player in the history of the game, which makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless.

I'd love to hear how it makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless? A .200 hitter with 1000 at bats will get have 200 hits. Does that mean he had a good season (as per your reasoning since he had 200 hits, the OBP should be irrelevant.) If he's at the plate more, it means he's making more outs. To ignore those outs and only count the times he gets on base is meaningless. (That is not to say that a player who is above average for a greater number of at-bats is not more of a help to his team than someone who did so for fewer at bats, but within reason you can't use that to ignore OBP.)

Nope. I'm saying that if a guy gets on base 300+ times but has an on-base percentage of .375, he is more valuable than a guy who has an on-base percentage of .410 who only got on-base 275 times.

 

[fengzhang]

I don't have a way to find out the numbers, but I am fairly certain that Ichiro actually gets on base more than any other player. His On-Base percentage is lower ONLY because he has more plate appearances than most players. That said, I would think that he actually gets on-base at a higher clip per-season than any other player in the history of the game, which makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless.

I'd love to hear how it makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless? A .200 hitter with 1000 at bats will get have 200 hits. Does that mean he had a good season (as per your reasoning since he had 200 hits, the OBP should be irrelevant.) If he's at the plate more, it means he's making more outs. To ignore those outs and only count the times he gets on base is meaningless. (That is not to say that a player who is above average for a greater number of at-bats is not more of a help to his team than someone who did so for fewer at bats, but within reason you can't use that to ignore OBP.)

Nope. I'm saying that if a guy gets on base 300+ times but has an on-base percentage of .375, he is more valuable than a guy who has an on-base percentage of .410 who only got on-base 275 times.

This is just really bad logic.

Let's say there's 750 plate appearances per season:

A player with a .375 OBP gets on base 281 times. This is a typical Ichiro season.

Let's say, the player with the .410 is injured, lazy, whatever and only makes 550 plate appearances. He only gets on base 226 times.

His replacement only has to maintain a .275 OBP in order to have a .375 OBP on the entire season from that position.

The total times on base is STILL greater with the great player + scrub replacement, than it is with Ichiro and his .375 OBP.

 

[Topnotchsy]

I don't have a way to find out the numbers, but I am fairly certain that Ichiro actually gets on base more than any other player. His On-Base percentage is lower ONLY because he has more plate appearances than most players. That said, I would think that he actually gets on-base at a higher clip per-season than any other player in the history of the game, which makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless.

I'd love to hear how it makes the "his on-base percentage isn't that great" argument pretty useless? A .200 hitter with 1000 at bats will get have 200 hits. Does that mean he had a good season (as per your reasoning since he had 200 hits, the OBP should be irrelevant.) If he's at the plate more, it means he's making more outs. To ignore those outs and only count the times he gets on base is meaningless. (That is not to say that a player who is above average for a greater number of at-bats is not more of a help to his team than someone who did so for fewer at bats, but within reason you can't use that to ignore OBP.)

Nope. I'm saying that if a guy gets on base 300+ times but has an on-base percentage of .375, he is more valuable than a guy who has an on-base percentage of .410 who only got on-base 275 times.

This is just really bad logic.

Let's say there's 750 plate appearances per season:

A player with a .375 OBP gets on base 281 times. This is a typical Ichiro season.

Let's say, the player with the .410 is injured, lazy, whatever and only makes 550 plate appearances. He only gets on base 226 times.

His replacement only has to maintain a .275 OBP in order to have a .375 OBP on the entire season from that position.

The total times on base is STILL greater with the great player + scrub replacement, than it is with Ichiro and his .375 OBP.

I've been having a hard time explaining my position. Thanked.

 

[sportscardtheory]

All-time on-base percentage leader Ted Williams got on base 2.05 times per-game in his career.

Ichiro Suzuki gets on-base 1.74 times per-game in his career.

These are the top three active players in on-base percentage

Albert Pujols 1.86
Todd Helton 1.83
Manny Ramirez 1.76

They are also the only players who get on-base more per-game than Ichiro Suzuki out of the on-base percentage leaders.

 

[fengzhang]

Don't diss a guy because he has a career .380+ OBP. That's nonsensical.

Believe me, that is NOT the reason we dis the guy. But your point is well taken. I'd still bet money that he ain't gonna make the Hall (and that Ichiro will).

People don't get into the Hall of Fame based on how productive they were as a player. Bobby Abreu is most certainly a more productive player than Ichiro. As is Adam Dunn.

People get into the Hall of Fame if they can do one thing REALLY well (ie standout in one stat), even if that stat is meaningless/overrated. Ichiro puts up ungodly hit totals. Tony Gwynn put up ridiculous batting averages. Ozzie Smith was great at backflips. In terms of RBI's and runs scored (ie in terms of actually generating runs), they weren't/aren't that great.

If Ichiro's batting average was .20 lower but his OBP was .30 higher (ie if he were a .313 hitter with a .410 OBP), he would most certainly be a better player and would generate more runs. But, he wouldn't be as famous because he wouldn't have those gaudy hit totals. Someone who hits .340 with 240 hits/season and 100 runs scored is more impressive to the HOF committee than someone who hits .280 with 190 hits/season and a .420 OBP and 120 runs scored. I would much rather have the leadoff hitter who gets 120 runs scored than a leadoff hitter who can hit .340.

 

[LazerShow15]

Are you serious with this thread? How is Ichiro overrated offensively? Put him on an above average team and he is right up there with Pujols. If he sacrificed AVG for power he would hit 30+ per year.