Congratulations Mr Beltre

[athletics07]

Career bWAR.

Rank Player (yrs, age) WAR Position Players Bats
1. Babe Ruth+ (22) 163.1 L
2. Barry Bonds (22) 162.4 L
3. Willie Mays+ (22) 156.2 R
4. Ty Cobb+ (24) 151.0 L
5. Hank Aaron+ (23) 142.6 R
6. Tris Speaker+ (22) 133.7 L
7. Honus Wagner+ (21) 131.0 R
8. Stan Musial+ (22) 128.1 L
9. Rogers Hornsby+ (23) 127.0 R
10. Eddie Collins+ (25) 123.9 L
11. Ted Williams+ (19) 123.1 L
12. Alex Rodriguez (21, 39) 116.6 R
13. Lou Gehrig+ (17) 112.4 L
14. Rickey Henderson+ (25) 110.8 R
15. Mickey Mantle+ (18) 109.7 B
16. Mel Ott+ (22) 107.8 L
17. Nap Lajoie+ (21) 107.4 R
18. Frank Robinson+ (21) 107.2 R
19. Mike Schmidt+ (18) 106.5 R
20. Joe Morgan+ (22) 100.3 L
21. Albert Pujols (15, 35) 97.1 R
22. Jimmie Foxx+ (20) 96.4 R
23. Eddie Mathews+ (17) 96.4 L
24. Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 96.1 L
25. Cal Ripken+ (21) 95.5 R
26. Roberto Clemente+ (18) 94.5 R
27. Cap Anson+ (27) 93.9 R
28. Al Kaline+ (22) 92.5 R
29. Wade Boggs+ (18) 91.0 L
30. George Brett+ (21) 88.4 L
31. Chipper Jones (19) 85.0 B
32. George Davis+ (20) 84.7 B
33. Roger Connor+ (18) 84.1 L
34. Ken Griffey (22) 83.6 L
35. Rod Carew+ (19) 81.1 L
36. Charlie Gehringer+ (19) 80.6 L
37. Jeff Bagwell (15) 79.6 R
38. Dan Brouthers+ (19) 79.4 L
39. Pete Rose (24) 79.1 B
40. Adrian Beltre (18, 36) 78.8 R
41. Brooks Robinson+ (23) 78.4 R
42. Joe DiMaggio+ (13) 78.1 R
43. Robin Yount+ (20) 77.0 R
44. Ozzie Smith+ (19) 76.4 B
45. Paul Molitor+ (21) 75.4 R
46. Bill Dahlen (21) 75.2 R
47. Sam Crawford+ (19) 75.1 L
48. Johnny Bench+ (17) 75.0 R
49. Lou Whitaker (19) 74.9 L
50. Luke Appling+ (20) 74.4 R

 

[r2d2]

Its the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Very Good

You do remember he is a third basemen right? You have to compare him with those who are already at the HOF at the position. In if you had done it you would have seen that he is definitively in.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

That was a question that needed not an answer. And I disagree re: Beltre unless you want to completely ignore the defensive side of the game.

Not that I give much a hoot about the hall these days anyway.

A I'll give you that but Both Beltre and Andrew jones have played 17 years and I think Andrew jones was a better hitter or atleast as good and a far superior defensive player at his position and we are not hearing anything about Andrew Jones going into the hall of fame... now what Beltre has that Andrew does not is he is still playing. When I look or hear the name Adrian Beltre it does not scream Hall of fame at all. I personally think he needs 3000 hit to get there. And f war, lol, as much of a tool used to evaluate player performance it also has its flaws.

 

[athletics07]

A I'll give you that but Both Beltre and Andrew jones have played 17 years and I think Andrew jones was a better hitter or atleast as good and a far superior defensive player at his position and we are not hearing anything about Andrew Jones going into the hall of fame... now what Beltre has that Andrew does not is he is still playing. When I look or hear the name Adrian Beltre it does not scream Hall of fame at all. I personally think he needs 3000 hit to get there. And f war, lol, as much of a tool used to evaluate player performance it also has its flaws.

You could make an argument for A. Jones as well, never said you couldn't. The fact that Beltre doesn't "scream HOF" is the exact point of this thread. I also agree that fWar has pitfalls but then tell me which players on that list don't belong - without any tired PED nonsense. They're all being held to the same formulas. So you're saying Beltre is a significant anomaly? That's not likely at all.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

You could make an argument for A. Jones as well, never said you couldn't. The fact that Beltre doesn't "scream HOF" is the exact point of this thread. I also agree that fWar has pitfalls but then tell me which players on that list don't belong - without any tired PED nonsense. They're all being held to the same formulas. So you're saying Beltre is a significant anomaly? That's not likely at all.

With the exception of the prewar guys and bags, all those guys towards the bottom of the list did significant things before their careers ended. They were already "famed" (if that's a word, lol). They were all referred to as the best at one time even if it was a small window. Beltre has never been referred to as the best. He's gonna need more than just war for him to get in. I don't think he gets in unless he gets 3000 hits. I'm my eyes he's not a hall of famer.
Look at Lou Whitaker on the list he was outed his first year of eligibility! And as for Andrew jones my point wasn't to suggest he has an argument, I'm sure he does but that in the same number of years as Beltre he was a far superior defensive player at his position and just as good offensively if not better and he's not gonna sniff the hall of fame argument or not.

 

[athletics07]

The "bottom of the list" of the top 50! This isn't just a HOF worthy list - that extends quite further but this is a pointless exercise at this point. There's a difference between whose in and who should be in on merits re:Whitaker.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

I think he needs 500/1500/3000 for a lock. Or at least very close on the 3 , if he plays 2 more years he should hit the 3000/1500 numbers and maybe 450. I don't think voters see him as a lock right now, nor as some have stated he doesn't have the "best" or "star" or "famed" feel to him so I think he needs to hit one+ of the important numbers.

Ryan

 

[BBCgalaxee]

I'm not saying he is not a possible HOF, but I can't imagine the voters will put him in the same universe as Schmidt regardless of his numbers and gold gloves.

Sent from my HTCONE using Freedom Card Board mobile app

 

[Brewer Andy]

Feels like a Jeff Kent. As good as he's been he'll need the milestones or the old codger voters won't give him more than 20%

 

[AnthonyCorona]

Unless Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are in the Hall then it really doesn't really feel complete

 

[Austin]

Beltre has 2,641 hits at age 36. He's just 359 hits away so he's a virtual lock to get 3,000 unless he has a major injury.
He had a bad first month this season, but he hit .324 last year, so he's still got the talent.

All he has to do is average around 120-130 hits in his age 36, 37 and 38 seasons to get 3,000.
He's averaged 192 hits his last three seasons, so barring injury, he'll easily get the milestone.

 

[WCTYSON]

Beltre is hands down a HOF'er, even if he were to end his career today. How can TP's only logical post ever here be overlooked? A's07 is on point, and if you do not think so then you do not understand metrics. Beltre is a top 3 defensive 3rd baseman all-time, then combined with his offensive numbers which are nothing to dismiss he is easily in the top 10 all-time at that position. Run creation is easy to gauge with conventional stats but run prevention needs weight too, making Beltre a lock. To say otherwise is a rudimentary understanding of the game.

 

[Brewer Andy]

Beltre is hands down a HOF'er, even if he were to end his career today. How can TP's only logical post ever here be overlooked? A's07 is on point, and if you do not think so then you do not understand metrics. Beltre is a top 3 defensive 3rd baseman all-time, then combined with his offensive numbers which are nothing to dismiss he is easily in the top 10 all-time at that position. Run creation is easy to gauge with conventional stats but run prevention needs weight too, making Beltre a lock. To say otherwise is a rudimentary understanding of the game.

But what is the argument specifically? Whether WE think he is a HOFer or whether the voters think he is? There is a distinction. Maybe not as wide as in decades past but there's a difference

 

[WCTYSON]

But what is the argument specifically? Whether WE think he is a HOFer or whether the voters think he is? There is a distinction. Maybe not as wide as in decades past but there's a difference

We can have differing opinions but this notion of needed certain HOF milestones to make it is baseless. With the voters, there are numerous factors involved and not just milestone stats which most of the time just makes their job easy. The voting criteria is not necessarily changing but understanding the overall value of a player is and the voting will follow as it should.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

We can have differing opinions but this notion of needed certain HOF milestones to make it is baseless. With the voters, there are numerous factors involved and not just milestone stats which most of the time just makes their job easy. The voting criteria is not necessarily changing but understanding the overall value of a player is and the voting will follow as it should.

Curious who the last borderline player who made the Hall was w/o a milestone number? Anyone come to mind in the last 20-25 years? There may be , just curious if someone comes to mind. And although he wasn't on the Mitchell Report, there are people who think he wasn't clean esp mid 2000s. And while that may be far from the truth , your going to have voters who really look hard at 90s-00s guys. That could be beneficial to a guy like AB if they aren't lumping him in the PED side. I do think he needs 3000 to be any type of lock though.

Ryan

 

[Austin]

Curious who the last borderline player who made the Hall was w/o a milestone number? Anyone come to mind in the last 20-25 years?

These are most of the players elected in the past 25 years without 3,000 hits, 500 homers or 300 wins.
Many of them are slam dunk HOFers, but several are definitely considered borderline candidates.

John Smoltz
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Joe Gordon
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Ron Santo
Barry Larkin
Ryne Sandberg
Gary Carter
Ozzie Smith
Kirby Puckett
Carlton Fisk
Tony Perez
Orlando Cepeda
Jim Bunning
Nellie Fox
Richie Ashburn
Hal Newhouser
Phil Rizzuto
Ferguson Jenkins
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Tony Lazzeri

 

[RStadlerASU22]

These are most of the players elected in the past 25 years without 3,000 hits, 500 homers or 300 wins.
Many of them are slam dunk HOFers, but several are definitely considered borderline candidates.

John Smoltz
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Joe Gordon
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Ron Santo
Barry Larkin
Ryne Sandberg
Gary Carter
Ozzie Smith
Kirby Puckett
Carlton Fisk
Tony Perez
Orlando Cepeda
Jim Bunning
Nellie Fox
Richie Ashburn
Hal Newhouse
Phil Rizzuto
Ferguson Jenkins
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
Tony Lazzeri

Cool thanks for doing the research. Def some names that don't jump off the page, which would help AB. But some of those names I can tell took awhile to get in. So what class competition he has may away voters too. Also non of those guys are PED discussed at all or lumped into that "maybe they did" category so ABs case may be different. It'll be interesting to see how his stats end when he calls it quits.

Ryan

 

[Topnotchsy]

Beltre is a really interesting player. Outside of 2004, he was essentially an average hitter for the first 12 seasons of his career. In 2010 something clicked and he put up 5 years of very high level performance. Now in his 18th season as a 36 year old, he is starting to reach some pretty serious career milestones.

In my mind he is not a HOFer, even if he does reach 3000 hits. I also find his career really hard to explain without considering whether certain numbers were enhanced (purely based on looking at the numbers...)

 

[WCTYSON]

Let me see if we can put this in context further. In the history of MLB, among all position players all-time only 51 have hit more home runs and only 76 have more hits than Beltre and that is without even considering his defensive value. I find player comparisons to get a bit silly because there are so many determining factors when comparing numbers. Setting that aside, I have yet to see anything that would compel me to say he does not deserve to be in the HOF. Early in his career he was young and athletic leading to valuable metrics defensively. As he aged, his athletic ability has slowed but his hitting has steadied with maturity.

 

[tpeichel]

You could make an argument for A. Jones as well, never said you couldn't. The fact that Beltre doesn't "scream HOF" is the exact point of this thread. I also agree that fWar has pitfalls but then tell me which players on that list don't belong - without any tired PED nonsense. They're all being held to the same formulas. So you're saying Beltre is a significant anomaly? That's not likely at all.

Not really a valid comparison, Jones did not have a good season after the age of 30.