HOLY COW What a RIDICULOUS Patch!

[George_Calfas]

Oh did anyone really read that note on gameused universe

"A short primer on Wilson tagging for MLB jerseys - late 60's to late 90's.
**NOTE: the image/primer/information below does NOT apply jerseys that have been tagged in the neck. Wilson neck tagging can often differ from Wilson body tagging during the same year. EG: Toronto Blue Jays tagging during the early-mid 90's. The information below has been collected and cross-referenced against itself from various unrelated sources. Although great effort has been made to get the transitional years exact, they may be off by 1. Also, given that some teams seem to recycle jerseys for years, it would not be surprising to see a circa 1984 Wilson tagging on a jersey that has been year tagged as 1989."

Page 4

Wow Thats a nice card. Here a couple of quotes from Kingjammy24 (The person who did the research for tagging) .


This is in regaurds to a Schmidt gamer tag with almost the same issue as this Clemente:

Just so people don't think I concoct those tagging primers while I'm inebriated, see the image below for numerous examples of 1988-89 style Rawlings tags all with a 1989 flag tag. While I admit I could always be wrong with the years, I do put a good amount of work into them and only decide on a year after I've seen an overwhelming amount of evidence.
I have seen less than 5 1990-91 style Rawlings tags with 1989 flag tags. They have always been on superstar jerseys - Schmidt, Griffey, Ripken, etc. The last one was on a Royals Bo Jackson jersey that sold for
over $1800. I've never seen one on a common player. Speaking of which, take a look at the $110 Steve Jeltz 1989 Philles jersey below. It shows the correct 1988-89 era Rawlings tag. Why, in 1989, did Steve Jeltz get an older tag while the Vintage Authentics Mike Schmidt got a new tag? (And why is Jeltz not strip-tagged with a name?)



This is the quote on the Wilson Tags:

A short primer on Wilson tagging for MLB jerseys - late 60's to late 90's.
**NOTE: the image/primer/information below does NOT apply jerseys that have been tagged in the neck. Wilson neck tagging can often differ from Wilson body tagging during the same year. EG: Toronto Blue Jays tagging during the early-mid 90's. The information below has been collected and cross-referenced against itself from various unrelated sources. Although great effort has been made to get the transitional years exact, they may be off by 1. Also, given that some teams seem to recycle jerseys for years, it would not be surprising to see a circa 1984 Wilson tagging on a jersey that has been year tagged as 1989.



Its conceivable that Kingjammy24 could be off in these years. He mentions he could be off by 1 year but then again he may be off 2 or 3 years. Also is the Wilson Tag in the pic he shows a Neck tag or body tag in which jammy says it could differ?
By the way I love that Kingjammy24 did all this research as I use those 2 links for my own reference but even he admits there may be mistakes with his research. If could be that the Pirates or NL used the 1974 - 77 Tagging in earlier years but I cannot confirm this. I dont know what to think of the Clemente Tag other than from the pic it looks worn and of the 70s but I dont have the card in front of me to make a better assement.

On a funnier note maybe one of Clemente's family members threw the first pitch of the 1974 season (If kingjammys years are correct) and wore a jersey with that tagging, because they have the same blood its almost like Clemente wore it himself

 

[oasis]

Oh did anyone really read that note on gameused universe

"A short primer on Wilson tagging for MLB jerseys - late 60's to late 90's.
**NOTE: the image/primer/information below does NOT apply jerseys that have been tagged in the neck. Wilson neck tagging can often differ from Wilson body tagging during the same year. EG: Toronto Blue Jays tagging during the early-mid 90's. The information below has been collected and cross-referenced against itself from various unrelated sources. Although great effort has been made to get the transitional years exact, they may be off by 1. Also, given that some teams seem to recycle jerseys for years, it would not be surprising to see a circa 1984 Wilson tagging on a jersey that has been year tagged as 1989."

Yes but that dont apply to jerseys made after his death. It only applys to jerseys from previous seasons. So 1984 in 1986 is ok BUT a 1986 in 1984 is absolutely not.

WhaT??

Whatever.. if the transitional year for most teams was 1974 but the Pirates started in 1970 .. could one picture be worth a thousand words or was there a need to have 2 pictures?

 

[Russ S.]

Topps claimed to me that it was authentic, they also claimed it to a very respected dealer here in St Louis.

Good for you.
Some Joe Schmoe at Topps told you on the phone it was real.

If it was mine, I'd demand hard proof in print or picture from them since it IS a big disappointing goof on their part.
But like George already said, they will claim it legit to the end with no proof to try to save their hide.

Sorry but it's true.

And good luck with the wait "Mr." Oasis, I have no need to contact you. :lol:

 

[George_Calfas]

1971 Stargell jersey by Rawlings
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDet ... lotid=9504

The 1971 Pirates combined speed, power, defense, and pitching for a National League-leading 97-65 record. Riding on the broad shoulders of the league's MVP, Willie "Pops" Stargell, who led the senior circuit with 48 home runs, batted .295, and drove in 125 runs, the Pirates beat the Baltimore Orioles in seven games to become World Champions. Offered is a knit, home Pittsburgh Pirates jersey worn by Hall of Famer Willie "Pops" Stargell during that magnificent season. It features a Rawlings "size 46" label on the inside right tail, along with a wash tag. The player number "8" appears on the front and back, and the jersey is autographed "Willie Stargell" in black Sharpie on the right front tail. In beautiful Near Mint condition with nice game use. LOA from Dan Knoll, Dave Bushing and Mike Gutierrez/Mastronet.

 

[George_Calfas]

Again; while I dont doubt it was pack pulled but an FCB member; I am now a bit concerned that the inclusion of the tag might be a clue that Topps included a jersey attributed to Clemente but was not his.

Again; Topps wording is quite vague as to player attribution. Also Topps could have unknowing bought a common jersey thinking it was a Clemente Gamer.

 

[oasis]

[quote="Russ S.":2azvflza]And you have no balls to go after Topps for screwing the pooch.

Kudos to you.

As I said Mr Russ S

Topps claimed to me that it was authentic, they also claimed it to a very respected dealer here in St Louis.

If you would like please provide me a name and contact at Topps and I will take it up with them again for whatever proof you may need. I dont know if even that will be enough for you..But I will be able to do so if you can provide me a contact.


So please I await your contact!

If they bought a fake gamer and inserted it into cards do you think they would tell any of us? This is why the current litigation is important. So many jerseys were bought by Topps and others; they thought they were buying Star player "X" when in fact they were buying common player "Y".[/quote:2azvflza]

That sadly is why we may never know. For all intents and purposes it could be a jersey wore by Manny sanguillen or one of Bob Moose. No one will ever know about the "realness" of the gu jerseys they cut up even with a picture. If I sued Topps , for this being a fake, how could they prove or disprove it. A letter of authenticity , a bill of sale? Sadly the only real person who wouldve known is passed away 39 years and a month ago.

Im sorry to sound so defensive, maybe it is because I respect the hobby ive invested in for 44 years, maybe its because the day Clemente died i setup a shrine for him in my room (i was 10 at the time so dont criticize), maybe even though it is far from my most valuable card it is one I cherish more than my tris speaker cut or walter Johnson cut. Its just a beautiful card.

The funny thing about this whole subject and thread is I started this thread on the Bench asking about what people thought it might be worth on the secondary market. Why? Well my insurance policy is due and I keep this and numerous cards valued over $1,000 in a fire proof underground safe. And although I can ascertain a value for the speaker cut , johnson cut and the 500 or so cards in that safe, I have never been able to even fathom a guess at what something like this might bring. Ive never even seen another clemente laundry tag on ebay or any other forum I participate in. I thought it time to see what others might think.

Instead , although there were a lot of Nice pull comments, most to many simply said there is no way that is real. or Topps screwed us again, or Im a patch factory.. and that hurts, Because the one thing I preach to all collectors is "all you really have in life is your integrity, that is something and the only thing you can take with you when you pass" That is how I teach my children to live, coworkers, family, friends and anyone who will listen.

So , sorry I got defensive, i suppose that is human nature, especially when you know what happened and what you have done to insure that something is legit and I have felt that I have done this to my own satisfaction without dropping 10K on a lawsuit that may or may not prove no more than I have!

So enough said. Enjoy this beauty like I do, it sure is a special card of a special player who died trying to help others. Everytime I see it I think of roberto on deck and walking to the plate with all his crazy gyrations and stretches and facial expressions. I was fortunate enough to see him play in busch stadium in the summer of 1971 and many times watching the game of the week on NBC with my dad and uncles. Those memories are just as special as this card!

 

[Russ S.]

^ Good Stuff ^

And don't thinks we are just a bunch a new collectors trying to bust your balls.
MANY of the guys on here have decades of collecting under their belts as well.

Glad you enjoy the hobby and the sport so much like many of us do.
Integrity doesn't come easy for most, and comes VERY easy to a few of us on here.

Loved your last post though.

 

[George_Calfas]

For what is it worth I think it is a great card.

I will leave it at this for the research portion:

In 1970 12 major league teams were wearing Rawlings-made uniforms, including the Pittsburgh Pirates, clad in the division's newly introduced doubleknit nylon and cotton uniforms.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company- ... story.html

 

[Russ S.]

Ranger, if we both weren't already married....

 

[oasis]

^ Good Stuff ^

By the way russ..

didnt mean to be rude to you.

Just thought that if you had a contact with Topps we could go that route.

or maybe you can assist me in collecting pennies for a legal case and we can march on Topps hQ hand in hand and take down the smoke monster!

Cause you know legal prosecution cost money, a lot of money if you are going to take on a Goliath like Topps. You would need a top of the line attorney who has history of winning cases of fraud, even questionable ones. Most attorneys I know, who are worth a salt, start with a cash retainer of $20K, especially when you have no "exact" foolproof PROOF that fraud was committed.

If I had that proof I would spend my entire live savings to slay that giant, just like if I knew the Giants were going to beat the Pats on Sunday Id bet my life savings on 2-1 odds!

But I know that there are "no guarantees" in life, just as there is and never will be no proof that the laundry tag is really from a Clemente worn jersey. Topps disclaimer on the back of any auto or GU card should lead one to question whether if it is an authentic item. Even the old Donruss backs that showed pictures of the jersey they cut up could be fakes.. I mean how do we know that the picture is of the exact same jersey? We dont.. We assume that it is because they tell us so.. and we continue to buy up products in masses.. I mean really.. How short printed is the rally squirrel card.. Maybe 1 in 20 cases now but what about the second printing or third printing.. what if they become commonplace as any other base card.. Are the silly folks who paid $699 or $275 on ebay for one going to stand a chance in the courtroom.. NO! Why.. cause Topps never releases print runs! Only make vague statements like its a XSP!

So again, I wasnt picking on you, just got a little defensive and for that I apologize!

 

[ChasHawk]

Top notch Mr Calfas!

 

[oasis]

Top notch Mr Calfas!

Excellent research indeed.

So much so that I have forwarded the card, the pictures, the links provided here to our Hobby experts

Beckett, to see what they may have to say!

Im sure if there is a way to contact Topps , they will know who and How.

Lets see where this plays out.

You have created a "reasonable doubt" scenario in my mind to take this an initial step!

I will advise when I receive back any info from Beckett!

 

[ChasHawk]

Top notch Mr Calfas!

our Hobby experts

Beckett

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just spit water on my keyboard.

 

[G $MONEY$]

It's SO unlikely that a guy buys a jumbo Clemente patch only to fake it..

you have much to learn young Skywalker

 

[homerun28aa]

It's SO unlikely that a guy buys a jumbo Clemente patch only to fake it..

you have much to learn young Skywalker

I agree with you, it's certainly plausible. But one crappy one just sold for $1,050 and plus these are WELL documented, if one goes up for sale a number of guys on this board track all of them. Would many fakers risk putting in $1,050 at the very least and risk ruining the card and risk someone catching them as a fake since these are extremely well documented?

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

It's SO unlikely that a guy buys a jumbo Clemente patch only to fake it..

you have much to learn young Skywalker

I agree with you, it's certainly plausible. But one crappy one just sold for $1,050 and plus these are WELL documented, if one goes up for sale a number of guys on this board track all of them. Would many fakers risk putting in $1,050 at the very least and risk ruining the card and risk someone catching them as a fake since these are extremely well documented?

Never underestimate the stupidity of people.

 

[G $MONEY$]

It's SO unlikely that a guy buys a jumbo Clemente patch only to fake it..

you have much to learn young Skywalker

I agree with you, it's certainly plausible. But one crappy one just sold for $1,050 and plus these are WELL documented, if one goes up for sale a number of guys on this board track all of them. Would many fakers risk putting in $1,050 at the very least and risk ruining the card and risk someone catching them as a fake since these are extremely well documented?

Never underestimate the stupidity of people.

There are still people buying and faking $8000 Sidney Crosby Cup RCs that are well documented as well, anything is possible where there is money to be made.


I do believe that Oasis pulled this Clemente card though as i know he is very well respected in the hobby.

 

[ChasHawk]

I now believe he pulled it too, but I also still believe that topps F'd up bigtime.

 

[G $MONEY$]

Clemente game used jersey's are not very common and go for big bucks, from what ive seen on-line (in a few minutes of research) they sell for $35, 000-$75, 000 at auction. Topps would know exactly were they got the jersey from.

 

[ChasHawk]

Looks like their 1968 jerseys were still being made by Rawlings...

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionD ... -Graded-A9