How Do I Trust PSA/DNA After All Of This?

[Therion]

I guess the best answer to kj's question is to be educated. Don't buy an autograph without doing a little research first. You wouldn't want to buy a Topps Desert Storm card without first knowing how fake ones are made and how to spot them, the same should be true of autographs.

 

[predatorkj]

Perhaps I am being a little more personal with my opinion because it really applies to why I would use them.I do see your point but I still admit...if your mail only got stomped on about 15% of the time and they were pretty much the only option...you still have an 85% chance of it not happening.Some chance is better than slim to none.

As for the known forger being hired...I had no idea.Not sure what to think of that.Man...this hobby is getting harder and harder every day.I feel like I am looking at my bills now which brings me great stress..
First the razor roustabout, then the game used fiasco and now forged items through PSA.Oy...!

I know dude. I look through my Astros and just wonder if any of them are fakes. I only started looking at PSA because I was wanting to get them authenticated for my own peace of mind. If they get the big names wrong, are they even going to try on the small names?

One thing to keep in mind is for some of these players...they may not have a whole lot of examples to go by and that could really make it hard for even them.

Hey...at least your Coombs autos are real!

Thats pretty much why I simply go for IP autos I personally get.Screw the paying big bucks for something that may or may not be.Not for me.I'd rather get them from the player.It makes for a more memorable experience.I can tell you everything that was going on when I got all of my in person autos.Even what the weather was like.Good stuff!

 

[scotty21690]

I guess the best answer to kj's question is to be educated. Don't buy an autograph without doing a little research first. You wouldn't want to buy a Topps Desert Storm card without first knowing how fake ones are made and how to spot them, the same should be true of autographs.

There we go. Know what you're buying and buy the auto not the slab. If you are buying an auto do your research and make sure it's legit. If you are not 100% confident it's not real then don't buy it, simple as that. Because well, companies do make mistakes, all of them.

 

[predatorkj]

I guess the best answer to kj's question is to be educated. Don't buy an autograph without doing a little research first. You wouldn't want to buy a Topps Desert Storm card without first knowing how fake ones are made and how to spot them, the same should be true of autographs.

Yeah but when you collect as many things as I do...this can be tricky to remember everythign to a tee.But yeah...everybody needs to do their homework.

 

[Therion]

I guess the best answer to kj's question is to be educated. Don't buy an autograph without doing a little research first. You wouldn't want to buy a Topps Desert Storm card without first knowing how fake ones are made and how to spot them, the same should be true of autographs.

Yeah but when you collect as many things as I do...this can be tricky to remember everythign to a tee.But yeah...everybody needs to do their homework.

LOL Tell me about it! Imagine having to verify that this auto is legit:

I know it is, but what are the odds that you will find an example to study it from? This will be my biggest problem once I work my way through the easily obtained Astros.

 

[MallCopKJ]

I know one thing is for sure. After the way James Spence and his "crew" treated me, I will never pay him money to authenticate anything I own.

 

[IndyManning18]

I know one thing is for sure. After the way James Spence and his "crew" treated me, I will never pay him money to authenticate anything I own.

Elaborate.

 

[MallCopKJ]

I know one thing is for sure. After the way James Spence and his "crew" treated me, I will never pay him money to authenticate anything I own.

Elaborate.

Ok, its kind of long but here goes.
2 years ago Im going to a show, shortly after I left the job I had at the time. I needed some extra money so I decide to bring some stuff and sell it there. I had 3 16x20 autod pictures of Muhammed Ali. I didnt want to sell them but know his signatures go for a lot and decide to sell at least 1 if the price is good. I get to the show and go around to a few people, who although are interested wont buy untill I got them authenticated. PSA was set up right at the front door and I wasnt aware anyone else was there. So I go to PSA's table, pay $75 and am told to come back in about an hour. I walk around the show while I wait and later on I see Spences' table. I walk by to see how much he charged for an Ali auto, not saying a word about my autographs. The paper says $75 and Im thinking "well alright at least Im not overpaying with PSA". I was somewhat upset though, because Im thinking I might get more with the Spence authentication (some people at the show were only selling things authenticated by him). Anyways, I go to walk away and a guy authenticating with Spence at the end of his table asks what I have and asks to see it. Tells me hes a boxing fan and loves seeing Ali's auto. He tells me hes the guy who authenticates the Ali autos and goes on about how great Ali was and how much he liked him. He then asks if Im going to get it authenticated by them. I tell him theres no real reason to have something I know is real, and likely staying in my personal collection to be authenticated but ask him if he thinks its worth authenticating even if its just for the sticker. When I said that to him he got visably and verbally upset saying "You want my opinion for free?! Where do you get off thinking Im going to tell you anything without paying for it, THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS!" I start laughing figuring hes joking around with me but obviopusly he wasnt.
"Now you think its funny!? See that $1,000 Ted Williams rookie card over at that womans table?? Why dont you walk over there and ask her to give that to you for free because you think you dont have to pay for anything RIGHT!?"
I ask for my picture back and go to walk away as this guy is clearly not right upstairs. Spence hears the guys tirade and walks over asking whats up. I tell him, he takes the picture and walks away from the guy calling me over to the side. I explain that I was already getting 1 authenticated with PSA because I didnt know he was there and tell him I want to sell one. He tells me about the people at the show who only buy from him and suggests I might get more if he authenticated it because of his name. I tell him alright and pay another $75 (after I go sell one of my cards to pay for authenticating it :? ). He tells me to come back in about 25-30 minutes. I walk around some more, and later head back to the table. He greets me with a: "Do you have a receipt for this? Can you get your money back, because this isnt real." No, I dont have a receipt because it was signed for a relative, in person and given directly to me. He then tells me to wait untill the other photo is done at PSA's table and bring that one over to him after. I go back to PSA's booth and my photo is waiting. They tell me its real, and I head back to Spences table. He takes a few minutes looking at it, taking pictures, comparing it with other photos he had and asks why I didnt bring that one to him first because this one was definately real. He then looks at the 3rd picture and tells me that one is also real, but the first one he looked at was done by someone else. Not Ali. As if I wasnt upset enough he asks for ANOTHER $75 and he will authenticate the 3rd one for me. Like hes doing me a favor! Anyways, he eventually tells me that because he has my number hes going to do some more research and send me a certificate in the mail because he thinks it might be real after all. 2 years later, he never answered emails, or returned phone calls.

To make matters even worse, I take the "real one" back to the dealers who were initially interested and they no longer want to buy it because the "real one" must also be fake because the other 1 was the exact same thing and was deemed fake.......To be perfectly honest, I feel I was scammed and I got screwed. I spent $150 and sold a card I didnt even want to because I was assured I could sell it with his name on it. I walked out of that show with all 3 photos (2real ones and 1 "fake") (-) $150 and (-) a good card.

 

[Pete14Rose]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

 

[MallCopKJ]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. There is also something called "Video Spectral Comparator" (VSC4), which is a powerful workstation designed to examine questionable documents and autographs using sophisticated color and infrared imaging, magnification, coaxial lighting, and side lighting on-screen. The VSC detects erasures, reveals masked and obliterated signatures, differences in ink types, and several other features useful for autograph forgery detection. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

 

[Pete14Rose]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

 

[IndyManning18]

MallCop,

Sorry to hear about that story.

-Jeff

 

[MallCopKJ]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

Unless I am mistaken this is exactly what James Spence did before he joined PSA. I believe, might be wrong, that he worked for the FBI. I dont think I misunderstood what you said at all. You clearly grouped the best there is to offer in authentication as "having us hook line and sinker". It doesnt look to me, like you gave anyone credit as you said that "Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature". With that statement I was under the impression that you were unaware that authentication is simply more than someone opinion. I simply posted because you asked anyone who thought different to "prove it" and I thought I was informing you. Sorry about that.

 

[MallCopKJ]

MallCop,

Sorry to hear about that story.

-Jeff

thanks Jeff. Sucked to have such a lousy experience with them but I guess I cant do much about it at this point. Just tell people of my bad experience and hope to save someone else cash.

 

[MallCopKJ]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

I should also add that Im not siding with all "experts" and I get where your coming from. Heck I lost $150 and a sale to that loser and frankly, I think James Spence is a pretty crappy guy for what he did to me, and who knows how many others. I mean, when it all comes down to it you are only paying for their OPINION, and just because they come to one conclussion doesnt make it right or wrong. Being there in the moment something is signed, and getting it yourself is really the only way to tell something is real.

 

[Pete14Rose]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

I should also add that Im not siding with all "experts" and I get where your coming from. Heck I lost $150 and a sale to that loser and frankly, I think James Spence is a pretty crappy guy for what he did to me, and who knows how many others. I mean, when it all comes down to it you are only paying for their OPINION, and just because they come to one conclussion doesnt make it right or wrong. Being there in the moment something is signed, and getting it yourself is really the only way to tell something is real.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I have a Stan Musial ball that means more to me, in terms of auto'd items, than any certified auto card could or authenticated auto could. I went to a show, met Musial, shook his hand and he signed the ball for me. It was a great experience and I know without a shadow of doubt that the signature is 100% real. I would never even think to have it authenticated. No reason to.

 

[Therion]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

I agree pretty much 100%, but the bolded made me laugh out loud. I haven't seen that insult used in a while. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[A_Pharis]

That's why I'm not huge on authentication services. I own very few authenticated pieces. I go to small shows and buy endorsed checks. The highest end item I have is a Mantle signature with salutations that I got from a female ebay seller (the paypal name was clearly female) who had a framed piece she had gotten from her grandmother. It's a magazine beer ad that was in it's original frame (frame had a paper backing that would show tampering) and was dated in the 80's. I paid $50 and don't feel the need to get it authenticated.
I've since reframed it, but I will matte and reframe it with a relic card in the future.

With the originality of the piece and the inscription, I have no doubts about it.
Now had it been an IC with just the sig... I might be wary.

No way am I going to pay $75 for a guy to glance at it and judge that it's real or fake when it's really luck of the draw with them.

 

[predatorkj]

Signature/autograph authenticating is subjective. Sorry, to those of you that buy into the names PSA/DNA and James Spence hook line and sinker, but guess what fellas? None of these so-called "experts" are true experts. They are self proclaimed "experts" in a field where the reality is they use their best judgement or "guess". Most are middle aged blowhards who wouldn't know a true Babe Ruth (used as a perfect example after the UD quad auto debacle) signature from fraudulent one. (I wouldn't either, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field).

And to add to the whole sham....9 out of 10 times they (all authenticators) will authenticate their items (100% authentic every time) and they authenticate based on what is in their best interest. If you are a bigshot...bam, your items are 100% authentic.

No, sorry, no conspiracy theory. Just the cold hard proof of the evil greed monster that turns this industry.

And for those who will say, "Prove it!"....how about you prove it doesn't occur. Only a blind orangutan would believe that authenticators in today's sports memorabilia business actually care about the item and the legitimacy of the signature more than they care about the all mighty dollar.

While this may be true, you cant completely deny that there are people fully capable of authenticating where a signature came from and/or who it came from. A lot of times people who get into the business of sports memorabilia authentication are people who have backgrounds involving the authentication of things far from sports/celebrity autographs. Murders have been solved using signatures, court cases have been put to rest, and countless other things come from people who test someones writing as legit or not. There are many ways this can be done outside of just guesswork and/or comparing 1 autographs. Today, the pressure the person uses when signing their name can be tested, and tendancies that usually cant be copied by anyone other that the actual person can be found with the equipment available. At the same time Im not gullible to say that 100% of the time their right but its definately more than someones best guess.

I think you misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not talking about, nor did I ever attempt to discredit, ACTUAL handwriting experts or the field of Signature & Handwriting Forensics.

That's not anywhere near what my post said or remotely inferred.

What I said (in summation) was that for the most part, this hobby is filled with ass clowns that call themselves experts in the field of identifying and authenticating sports autographs/signatures. Yet, the credentials they have as an expert is their supposed time in the hobby and the age old line "I've seen so many of X players signatures, I could spot a fake a mile away". While it is possible, yet highly unlikely, that one, maybe two of today's sports signature authenticators might be honest and have an actual background in Signature & Handwritting techniques....the majority are overweight, middle aged men that used to run unsuccessful hobby shops and have now turned their attention to the authentication "game" as a way to line their pockets. And it just doesn't stop at signatures....it's rampant in the game used memorabilia world as well. The name Lou Lampson tops my list as one who doesn't have an actual clue yet gets paid to authenticate items.

I agree pretty much 100%, but the bolded made me laugh out loud. I haven't seen that insult used in a while. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The old ass clown thing eh? Pretty good stuff right there.

I agree that there has to be a few of the authenticators who actually know what they are doing but I would also say this...I truly believe they would look the other way if a big order came in from a dealer they did a lot of business with.It doesn't mean they do it with everybody or with every item but I am sure some things slip through on purpose as opposed to accident and you could never prove it was done on purpose.And since they have a decent track record I don't think anyone could personally discredit their service entirely.If you get something back as fake that you know for a fact is real...the argument I made earlier is what people will think."Well they still have a good success rate so your item is an exception".

I would love to screw with them one day though and take all of my IP stuff to a show just to see how good they really are.I can see it now"Uhh...6 of your items were deemed as fake...where did you get these?"

"In person...all of them"..."I want a refund"! :lol:

Not that they would give me one but it would be funny to see the look on their face.But I think as long as people are willing to pay money for authenticated items...there will always be a racket like this.

Bad part is me and my friend Juan were talking about it one time and he told me he felt a lot of his autos were real because, like Therion, he has a bunch of IP astros stuff but he didn't get them himself but through other people.Dealers and such.He said to me that he felt since it was a bunch of unpopular players who would fake those?I told him that he had a point bu then again...if you could get say $3 or $5 a piece for them...you could turn a ten cent base card from late 80's topps into a profit and you were more likely to be able to sell them since they were auto'd as opposed to being able to sell singles of stuff people already have a million times over.Kinda like being able to move normally unmovable inventory and make extra money while doing it.I think that scared him a bit and I don't think he collects them anymore but I just urged him to focus on PSA items of such.I seriously can't see many people faking a very unpopular sig of a no namer and getting it authenticated.Not when there is more money to be made on the big guys.And not when it costs the dealer a lot more money than just forging a sig on an old baseball card with no value lying around in the shop.

 

[Therion]

The other side of that coin: There is a lot less scrutiny for no name players. The fact that one might think nobody would ever fake a Craig Smajstrla autograph is exactly why someone would forge one. Forging a Mickey Mantle is harder than forging Mike White. Who even has examples of Mike White on file?