I Wanna Clear This Up (Jeter)

[Mighty Bombjack]

I love being called a hater.

I can't put it any simpler than this:

Go to Jeter's baseball reference page. It is an impressive one indeed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

Can you tell me that Jeter would be "rated" as high as he is now, by the spectrum of baseball fans from casual to nutso?

Nope, you can't. You have a great player entering the HOF, probably on the first ballot. But the way people ride his jock like they do now? Not even close. WAY less Sportscenter and fewer SI covers and FCB threads.

That equals overrated in my book.

 

[hail2thevictors]

Lets say Jeter finds a new team, who plays SS for the Yankees?

Eduardo Nunez, as others have said.

I will no doubt get blasted for this, but if they have to use Eduardo Nunez and let Jeter go, the Yankees will still be playing baseball come October. In fact, Eduardo Nunez has UPSIDE, which I would argue Derek Jeter no longer has. He will be 23 at the start of 2011.

I am not saying this guy will fill Derek Jeter's shoes-what I am saying is with Nunez, you get a guy who has upside, will be dirt cheap-and they will still make the playoffs. Most likely Nunez would hit something like .260, with minimal power, and 20 or so steals in a full year.

There is just no way Jeter is even worth the $15M per season the Yanks already offered. You don't pay a guy based on past accomplishments alone, you pay a guy more for what you will get during his contract.

 

[kdailey4315]

The Giants have contacted Jeter's reps. I HIGHLY doubt anything will happen but Sabaen was the Yankee scout who scouted Jeter so there is a very small link there.

 

[hofautos]

Go to Jeter's baseball reference page. It is an impressive one indeed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

That's as silly as saying if Babe Ruth wasn't a Yankee, he wouldn't be a BASEBALL ICON.

It's fine to be hypothetical, but then again, it's possible that Jeter would have more rings and more gold gloves than he has, if he was on another team.

It is what it is....

 

[ronfromfresno]

I love being called a hater.

I can't put it any simpler than this:

Go to Jeter's baseball reference page. It is an impressive one indeed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

That's as silly as saying if Babe Ruth wasn't a Yankee, he wouldn't be a BASEBALL ICON.

It's fine to be hypothetical, but then again, it's possible that Jeter would have more gold rings and more gold gloves than he has, if he was on another team.

It is what it is....

Actually Ruth put the Yankees on the map, they weren't a great team before him. So Ruth would have made any team great, remember he raised the Red Sox to Champions as well. I doubt Jeter could have done that at any point in his career and would have suffered statistically on many other teams, where Ruth may not have.

 

[aarne13]

I guess the real issue is, what the definition of overrated means?

This is the crux of the whole (non-)argument. I think Jeter is overexposed, overhyped, and overworshiped. This is largely because he is a Yankee.

Let me give you three names: Craig Biggio, Barry Larkin, and Roberto Alomar. These are the closest comparables to Jeter IMO. they have slightly lower career percentage stats (and we can expect Jeter's to slightly decline), but they were superior fielders and arguably more valuable to their respective teams. Now, do you think the average fan "rates" them in the same place as Jeter? No, because Jeter has five rings (which any of those players could probably have if they had switched teams with Jeter). It's just that Houston, Cincinnati, and San Diego/Toronto/Baltimore/Cleveland aren't sexy places to spend a career. An objective baseball person can remove the pinstripes and the pretty face and all of the magazine covers and the value of baseball cards and see that Jeter is a great player who reaps the benefits of having been drafted by the greatest franchise in the history of sports. That is glaringly obvious right now as people are waking up to the fact that Jeter needs the Yankees a whole hell of a lot more than they need him.

And then there is the whole Gold Glove debacle.

I think he's overrated, and that's my definition. These threads will never come to fruition or die, which is probably why I like them.

Jeter is gonna end his career with better stas than all of them. I love Roberto Alomar, and he should have been a first balloter, but I dont think he is as good all around as Jeter. Neither is Larkin or Biggio.

Two different positions, you can't compare Alomar to Jeter. Regardless I would take Alomar in his prime over Jeter any day of the week. Jeter's offensive stats are slightly better than Alomar's but defensively Robbie is ridiculously far ahead of him (he actually earned his Gold Gloves). I don't disagree that Jeters numbers are really good but to call him "good all around" is a stretch. He is passable at best in the field, he won't make too many mistakes but certainly sees a lot of (playable)infield singles go through his coverage area.
On his own with a different team I doubt he would have the numbers that he has. I don't disagree with the Yankees offer, although its been a bit of a soap opera. It would be ridiculous to give Jeter 20 mil/yr+ considering that he could fall off the cliff like Alomar, who was the same age.

 

[hofautos]

I love being called a hater.

I can't put it any simpler than this:

Go to Jeter's baseball reference page. It is an impressive one indeed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

That's as silly as saying if Babe Ruth wasn't a Yankee, he wouldn't be a BASEBALL ICON.

It's fine to be hypothetical, but then again, it's possible that Jeter would have more gold rings and more gold gloves than he has, if he was on another team.

It is what it is....

Actually Ruth put the Yankees on the map, they weren't a great team before him. So Ruth would have made any team great, remember he raised the Red Sox to Champions as well. I doubt Jeter could have done that at any point in his career and would have suffered statistically on many other teams, where Ruth may not have.

Even if Ruth was on another team and made them great, he wouldn't be the ICON he is today.
The point I am making is that IT IS WHAT IT IS....
Yankees have been great since, without Ruth too, so Ruth was overrated /sarcasm
If Derek Jeter was 100lbs heavier he wouldn't have been able to play shortstop for 16 years...whatever...

Bottom line, that no one can dispute, is that Jeter is in the top 1% of all MLB players ever to step onto the field.

 

[hofautos]

I guess the real issue is, what the definition of overrated means?

This is the crux of the whole (non-)argument. I think Jeter is overexposed, overhyped, and overworshiped. This is largely because he is a Yankee.

Let me give you three names: Craig Biggio, Barry Larkin, and Roberto Alomar. These are the closest comparables to Jeter IMO. they have slightly lower career percentage stats (and we can expect Jeter's to slightly decline), but they were superior fielders and arguably more valuable to their respective teams. Now, do you think the average fan "rates" them in the same place as Jeter? No, because Jeter has five rings (which any of those players could probably have if they had switched teams with Jeter). It's just that Houston, Cincinnati, and San Diego/Toronto/Baltimore/Cleveland aren't sexy places to spend a career. An objective baseball person can remove the pinstripes and the pretty face and all of the magazine covers and the value of baseball cards and see that Jeter is a great player who reaps the benefits of having been drafted by the greatest franchise in the history of sports. That is glaringly obvious right now as people are waking up to the fact that Jeter needs the Yankees a whole hell of a lot more than they need him.

And then there is the whole Gold Glove debacle.

I think he's overrated, and that's my definition. These threads will never come to fruition or die, which is probably why I like them.

Jeter is gonna end his career with better stas than all of them. I love Roberto Alomar, and he should have been a first balloter, but I dont think he is as good all around as Jeter. Neither is Larkin or Biggio.

Two different positions, you can't compare Alomar to Jeter. Regardless I would take Alomar in his prime over Jeter any day of the week. Jeter's offensive stats are slightly better than Alomar's but defensively Robbie is ridiculously far ahead of him (he actually earned his Gold Gloves). I don't disagree that Jeters numbers are really good but to call him "good all around" is a stretch. He is passable at best in the field, he won't make too many mistakes but certainly sees a lot of (playable)infield singles go through his coverage area.
On his own with a different team I doubt he would have the numbers that he has. I don't disagree with the Yankees offer, although its been a bit of a soap opera. It would be ridiculous to give Jeter 20 mil/yr+ considering that he could fall off the cliff like Alomar, who was the same age.

Many would say Alomar was overrated too, but he is in the top 1% also!

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

I love being called a hater.

I can't put it any simpler than this:

Go to Jeter's baseball reference page. It is an impressive one indeed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

That's as silly as saying if Babe Ruth wasn't a Yankee, he wouldn't be a BASEBALL ICON.

It's fine to be hypothetical, but then again, it's possible that Jeter would have more gold rings and more gold gloves than he has, if he was on another team.

It is what it is....

Actually Ruth put the Yankees on the map, they weren't a great team before him. So Ruth would have made any team great, remember he raised the Red Sox to Champions as well. I doubt Jeter could have done that at any point in his career and would have suffered statistically on many other teams, where Ruth may not have.

The point I am making is that it is what it is...
Yankees have been great since, without Ruth too, so Ruth was overrated /sarcasm
If Derek Jeter was 100lbs heavier he wouldn't have been able to play shortstop for 16 years...whatever...

Bottom line, that no one can dispute, is that Jeter is in the top 1% of all MLB players ever to step onto the field.

So no player is or ever has been under or overrated? Because it is what it is? That ends the discussion pretty quickly.

 

[hofautos]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... de01.shtml[/url]

Then conduct a little thought experiment. On the stat lines, change every NYY AL to a small market team, like, say, MIL NL or KC AL. That's all you have to change (although the Hall of Fame Monitor score is going to go way down, because Jeter wouldn't have any rings and probably no GGs).

That's as silly as saying if Babe Ruth wasn't a Yankee, he wouldn't be a BASEBALL ICON.

It's fine to be hypothetical, but then again, it's possible that Jeter would have more gold rings and more gold gloves than he has, if he was on another team.

It is what it is....

Actually Ruth put the Yankees on the map, they weren't a great team before him. So Ruth would have made any team great, remember he raised the Red Sox to Champions as well. I doubt Jeter could have done that at any point in his career and would have suffered statistically on many other teams, where Ruth may not have.

The point I am making is that it is what it is...
Yankees have been great since, without Ruth too, so Ruth was overrated /sarcasm
If Derek Jeter was 100lbs heavier he wouldn't have been able to play shortstop for 16 years...whatever...

Bottom line, that no one can dispute, is that Jeter is in the top 1% of all MLB players ever to step onto the field.

So no player is or ever has been under or overrated? Because it is what it is? That ends the discussion pretty quickly.[/quote:1ikspizk]

IMHO, it's difficult to argue if someone is over or underrated, by using hypothetical situations.
First define overrated, and then say he is over or underrated by "what terms".

If you want to just say he is overpaid, i would agree, but I would say the same about any baseball player.
If you want to say he doesn't have some of the greatest stats of all time, then I would disagree.
If you want to say he is in his declining years, I would probably agree, and say lets watch a couple more years, but more than likely I think we will see him to continue to decline.
I wouldn't even suggest he is in the top 10% of players on the field today.

So the real issue, before any argument could be made, would be to define "overrated".
I just don't think too many people really overrate him...i think most knowledgable baseball fans rate him about where he should be.

One of the greatest all time, probably declining years, overpaid...i think most people would rate him right here.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

IMHO, it's difficult to argue if someone is over or underrated, by using hypothetical situations.
First define overrated, and then say he is over or underrated by "what terms".

Again, this is the crux of the argument. I think he's overrated, meaning I think people, on average, rate him higher than they should. I think they buy the media hype and exposure that comes with the Yankees. The huge number of people think that name brands are inherently better than generics because they've been brainwashed by marketing. They buy Advil when I buy Best Brand Ibuprofen, and they buy Jeter when I buy Larkin.

If you want to just say he is overpaid, i would agree, but I would say the same about any baseball player.

What if I say he's overpaid relative to other baseball players?

If you want to say he doesn't have some of the greatest stats of all time, then I would disagree.

No one is saying this.

If you want to say he is in his declining years, I would probably agree, and say lets watch a couple more years, but more than likely I think we will see him to continue to decline.

This is to be expected and is called "life" or "being human."

I wouldn't even suggest he is in the top 10% of players on the field today...i think most people would rate him right here.

THIS is where we hit a snag. I agree with you on the first point and disagree on the second. That equals overrated.

 

[hofautos]

IMHO, it's difficult to argue if someone is over or underrated, by using hypothetical situations.
First define overrated, and then say he is over or underrated by "what terms".

Again, this is the crux of the argument. I think he's overrated, meaning I think people, on average, rate him higher than they should. I think they buy the media hype and exposure that comes with the Yankees. The huge number of people think that name brands are inherently better than generics because they've been brainwashed by marketing. They buy Advil when I buy Best Brand Ibuprofen, and they buy Jeter when I buy Larkin.

If you want to just say he is overpaid, i would agree, but I would say the same about any baseball player.

What if I say he's overpaid relative to other baseball players?

If you want to say he doesn't have some of the greatest stats of all time, then I would disagree.

No one is saying this.

If you want to say he is in his declining years, I would probably agree, and say lets watch a couple more years, but more than likely I think we will see him to continue to decline.

This is to be expected and is called "life" or "being human."

I wouldn't even suggest he is in the top 10% of players on the field today...i think most people would rate him right here.

THIS is where we hit a snag. I agree with you on the first point and disagree on the second. That equals overrated.

So you do agree he is one of the greatest of all time. That's good, because I think most people in this thread that say he is overrated, don't believe that. When I hear people say Jeter is overrated, I think that they don't believe he is one of the greatest players ever.

So by your definition, overrated in this particular instance, is that most people think Jeter is "STILL" one of the best on the field. I don't think too many people really believe that he is still one of the greatest by today's standards....although he does remain "clutch". I just think people that believe he is overrated, believe that others think he is STILL one of the greatest, OR they really don't know just HOW GOOD HIS CAREER NUMBERS REALLY ARE.

A LOT of people know Jeter because of his stardom (looks, popularity, marketing), not because of how they rate him on the field....like it or not, he is a celebrity in many people's eyes....He is MORE than just one of the greatest baseball players of all time.

PS- I buy my ibuprofen at costco in the 1000 pack, and I own more Larkins (3) than Jeters (2)

[/quote]

PSS- as far as being overpaid, Yankees "overpay" all of their players comparitively. So does the company I work for, and many other big companies with big profits do too.

I think Yankees should get paid more, because they have bigger market and more profits (and they have to live and/or play in NY---yuck )
They also aren't just paying for the player, they are selling tickets (that many stadiums do not), selling jerseys (which many players do not).
Jeter will also be selling tickets and merchandise as he nears 3000 hits, as a YANKEE. I do believe Marketing does enjoy it's rewards, and should.

 

[joey12508]

so what do you all lovers and haters think he will sign for.
my guess 4 years 100 mil

 

[hofautos]

IMHO, it's difficult to argue if someone is over or underrated, by using hypothetical situations.
First define overrated, and then say he is over or underrated by "what terms".

Again, this is the crux of the argument. I think he's overrated, meaning I think people, on average, rate him higher than they should. I think they buy the media hype and exposure that comes with the Yankees. The huge number of people think that name brands are inherently better than generics because they've been brainwashed by marketing. They buy Advil when I buy Best Brand Ibuprofen, and they buy Jeter when I buy Larkin.

If you want to just say he is overpaid, i would agree, but I would say the same about any baseball player.

What if I say he's overpaid relative to other baseball players?

If you want to say he doesn't have some of the greatest stats of all time, then I would disagree.

No one is saying this.

If you want to say he is in his declining years, I would probably agree, and say lets watch a couple more years, but more than likely I think we will see him to continue to decline.

This is to be expected and is called "life" or "being human."

I wouldn't even suggest he is in the top 10% of players on the field today...i think most people would rate him right here.

THIS is where we hit a snag. I agree with you on the first point and disagree on the second. That equals overrated.

So you do agree he is one of the greatest of all time. That's good, because I think most people in this thread that say he is overrated, don't believe that. When I hear people say Jeter is overrated, I think that they don't believe he is one of the greatest players ever.

So by your definition, overrated in this particular instance, is that most people think Jeter is "STILL" one of the best on the field. I don't think too many people really believe that he is still one of the greatest by today's standards....although he does remain "clutch". I just think people that believe he is overrated, believe that others think he is STILL one of the greatest, OR they really don't know just HOW GOOD HIS CAREER NUMBERS REALLY ARE.

A LOT of people know Jeter because of his stardom (looks, popularity, marketing), not because of how they rate him on the field....like it or not, he is a celebrity in many people's eyes....He is MORE than just one of the greatest baseball players of all time.

PS- I buy my ibuprofen at costco in the 1000 pack, and I own more Larkins (3) than Jeters (2)

PSS- as far as being overpaid, Yankees "overpay" all of their players comparitively. So does the company I work for, and many other big companies with big profits do too.

I think Yankees should get paid more, because they have bigger market and more profits (and they have to live and/or play in NY---yuck )
They also aren't just paying for the player, they are selling tickets (that many stadiums do not), selling jerseys (which many players do not).
Jeter will also be selling tickets and merchandise as he nears 3000 hits, as a YANKEE. I do believe Marketing does enjoy it's rewards, and should.

 

[hofautos]

so what do you all lovers and haters think he will sign for.
my guess 4 years 100 mil

They said to be a yankee he will have to take a pay cut...so i would guess $18-21mil/year.

 

[ronfromfresno]

I think the Giants should make a run for Jeter. I mean Sabean almost always, way over pays for older players, look at Zito, Rowand, Renteria. The Giants need a SS and a star position player to market. And the Giants like to throw parties for players reaching milestones, all of Mays' accomplishments, Bonds HR chase, Steve Carlton 4,000 strike outs, Randy Johnson 300 wins and why not add a 3,000 chase into the mix.

 

[hofautos]

I think the Giants should make a run for Jeter. I mean Sabean almost always, way over pays for older players, look at Zito, Rowand, Renteria. The Giants need a SS and a star position player to market. And the Giants like to throw parties for players reaching milestones, all of Mays' accomplishments, Bonds HR chase, Steve Carlton 4,000 strike outs, Randy Johnson 300 wins and why not add a 3,000 chase into the mix.

Like I said...That's part of his payroll...marketability...I wonder how many #2 Giants tickets and Jerseys he would sell as he made the 3000 (and potentially 4000 hit milestones), not as many as a Yankee though