RAZOR ANNOUNCES NEW 2010 POKER PRODUCT....

[allstars]

[quote="Crash Davis":1qj6cze2]The common collector doesn't have the opportunity to purchase boxes at "factory cost" and have to buy from dealers who mark-up the boxes based on the "factory cost" you state to be "a solid value."

To say that your product at "factory cost" is a solid value is an extremely irresponsible statement.

The above statement is so dead-on, and the most accurate comment made in this thread. People that make a living selling cards have no interest in "value at factory cost" - they have mouths to feed.

To hear a manufacturer make a comment like that is beyond disheartening. Also, to gloat about being the only company who's products are all "over cost" is nothing short of comical, consideriing the company is still in the infantile stage.

I cashed-in big on the poker fad, selling chips & shufflers. From where I sit that fad ended about 2 years ago. 300 cases might sound pidly to the baseball card market, but I suspect it's about all the poker card collector's market can care to absorb. High-end doesn't & will never exist in that market, nor will there be a desire for several poker card products in a given calendar year. It's a novelty, nothing more.

If BG can make a buck in the tiny, niche markets good for him. Why he'd be here spamming a baseball card forum instead of hyping his product in a poker chat room is beyond me...

it isn't spam

he was invited, as is every manufacturer[/quote:1qj6cze2]

Forgive me Chris, I just thought there was a nonsports section here.

I find it very strange that BG seems to enjoy flexing his non-sports muscles on a stage before the very collectors that he has already let down & abandoned. I have a hard time following his obvious need to show-up this crew. It seems very counter-productive to me. I guess it just rubs me wrong in general.

 

[cgilmo]

[quote="Warren's All Stars":1ofrryrq][quote="Crash Davis":1ofrryrq]The common collector doesn't have the opportunity to purchase boxes at "factory cost" and have to buy from dealers who mark-up the boxes based on the "factory cost" you state to be "a solid value."

To say that your product at "factory cost" is a solid value is an extremely irresponsible statement.

The above statement is so dead-on, and the most accurate comment made in this thread. People that make a living selling cards have no interest in "value at factory cost" - they have mouths to feed.

To hear a manufacturer make a comment like that is beyond disheartening. Also, to gloat about being the only company who's products are all "over cost" is nothing short of comical, consideriing the company is still in the infantile stage.

I cashed-in big on the poker fad, selling chips & shufflers. From where I sit that fad ended about 2 years ago. 300 cases might sound pidly to the baseball card market, but I suspect it's about all the poker card collector's market can care to absorb. High-end doesn't & will never exist in that market, nor will there be a desire for several poker card products in a given calendar year. It's a novelty, nothing more.

If BG can make a buck in the tiny, niche markets good for him. Why he'd be here spamming a baseball card forum instead of hyping his product in a poker chat room is beyond me...

it isn't spam

he was invited, as is every manufacturer[/quote:1ofrryrq]

Forgive me Chris, I just thought there was a nonsports section here.

I find it very strange that BG seems to enjoy flexing his non-sports muscles on a stage before the very collectors that he has already let down & abandoned. I have a hard time following his obvious need to show-up this crew. It seems very counter-productive to me. I guess it just rubs me wrong in general.[/quote:1ofrryrq]

it happens man


and believe me, you are free to express criticism of razor, MANY express that freedom frequently


I was just pointing out that it wasn't unwelcome spam in that he has been invited to post product information, even if that product information isn't relevant to the forum. It would be dumb of me to limit a manufacturer to areas of the forum that get little traffic.

 

[allstars]

it happens man


and believe me, you are free to express criticism of razor, MANY express that freedom frequently


I was just pointing out that it wasn't unwelcome spam in that he has been invited to post product information, even if that product information isn't relevant to the forum. It would be dumb of me to limit a manufacturer to areas of the forum that get little traffic.

Thanks Chris, I understand completely. I wasn't aware of the policy.

That's why you call it FREEDOM, and that's why it's my preferred haunt these days.

 

[Razor]

it happens man


and believe me, you are free to express criticism of razor, MANY express that freedom frequently


I was just pointing out that it wasn't unwelcome spam in that he has been invited to post product information, even if that product information isn't relevant to the forum. It would be dumb of me to limit a manufacturer to areas of the forum that get little traffic.

Thanks Chris, I understand completely. I wasn't aware of the policy.

That's why you call it FREEDOM, and that's why it's my preferred haunt these days.

+1

I appreciate all the feed back, good AND bad. As long as expressed professionally and unbiased , it is the greatest tool a manufacturer has (listening to the vary collector he serves).

I am sorry if anyone things we "left" or "deserted" them. We are making the decisions that are best for both our customers and our comapny. Our absence from baseball is by no means permanent, just calculated. We now have allowed all the chips to fall and we understand the going forward landscape VERY well.

We DO care about collectors and dealers. I will do my best for that to show, but we do need your help to be most effective in executing perfectly for you guys.

BG

BG

 

[Card Magnet]

Perhaps I missed it throughout the thread with all the bantering, but - when will a checklist be out? I'd love to check it out, not just for the hits, but the base set as well

 

[IndyManning18]

Does that Stu Ungar card say "Player Worn Jersey"? If so, why jersey?

 

[kentuckyderby]

Does that Stu Ungar card say "Player Worn Jersey"? If so, why jersey?

Jacket
He's a legend
Part of me likes him
Part of me has no pity on the guy (half his nose = gone due to snorting away his winnings)

 

[IndyManning18]

Does that Stu Ungar card say "Player Worn Jersey"? If so, why jersey?

Jacket
He's a legend
Part of me likes him
Part of me has no pity on the guy (half his nose = gone due to snorting away his winnings)

I have no problem with the card. I just thought the verbage said "jersey".

 

[P_Manning 18]

Phil Ivey and Vanessa Rousso would be nice too.

We have Vanessa and are working on adding IVey... BG

Did you post another list of players? She wasnt on the initial list from page 2.

 

[IndyManning18]

[quote="P_Manning 18":39ir2vuw]Phil Ivey and Vanessa Rousso would be nice too.

We have Vanessa and are working on adding IVey... BG

Did you post another list of players? She wasnt on the initial list from page 2.[/quote:39ir2vuw]
She was on the sell sheet.

 

[huntah]

The verbage says : hell of a collectible.

Does that Stu Ungar card say "Player Worn Jersey"? If so, why jersey?

Jacket
He's a legend
Part of me likes him
Part of me has no pity on the guy (half his nose = gone due to snorting away his winnings)

I have no problem with the card. I just thought the verbage said "jersey".

 

[Sean_C]

2 things I've learned over the years, Brian:

1). Unless you like the person or product, never give away market research (aka opinions) for free
2). The best criticism you will ever receive are from the people angriest with your product

The biggest problem I have with your products is pitch, push, and position; pitching and positioning a minor league product at a major league price, then pushing additional products out the door that the market couldn't support. I feel that you tried to buy credibility in the marketplace with the exclusive contracts, and exploited the opinions and reputations of a few of the bigger rookie card collectors. The (still unanswered) questions about Upper Deck's alleged involvement with Razor didn't help, the whole Inkworks issue made matters worse, the authenticity questions about some of the Presidential Cuts was unforgivable for such a high end product, and your "as long as the distributors buy it, it's worth doing" approach to products is a business plan that lacks vision. Sure you may be able to make $ on repacking a bunch of old yearbooks, but are you honestly proud to have put that out into the marketplace? What's next: Signed album covers? Index cards?

I collect minor league cards to a certain extent. I'm looking forward to the new Topps product, and have purchased boxed of UD's Minor league cards in the past. I've bought Tri-Star, the occasional Just card, hell, I'll even buy closeout Classic Wax for the occasional fun rip. Razor's baseball cards aren't the greatest looking cards, but aren't bad, and I'd probably be willing to pick up a few singles later on down the line, but wouldn't pay some insane premium for them, as they are just minor league cards, nothing more, nothing less.

Learn to listen to your harshest critics when they aren't offering "constructive criticism". They are going to tell you thing things you don't want to hear.

Whenever I read or am reminded about Razor, I can't help but think of the movie "Boiler Room".

Edit to update: Considering the "sincere" PM I got from Brian thanking me for my kind words and support. I figure I should clarify what I mean by my comment. Razor reminds me of 1 specific aspects of the movie; the scene where Seth is explaining how they get such big commissions on the sale of the stock because the owner of the firm is tied to the companies , and that their firm is the only one selling the particular stock. Without those brokers pushing the stock, there would be no market. Without the push that Razor received here, I don't think there would have been much of a market for their cards.

Honestly, if you ever gave a single constructive criticism rather than just blind bashing, I would love to hear honest thoughts.

300lb, NYC3 and even Jeff N. have expressed criticisms before, which while I may not completely agree, I respected because they truly attempted to criticism in a respectful constructive way.

With that being said, Boiler Room is one of my favorite movies ever (and not for the behavior you imply in your post).

BG

 

[Razor]

2 things I've learned over the years, Brian:

1). Unless you like the person or product, never give away market research (aka opinions) for free
2). The best criticism you will ever receive are from the people angriest with your product

The biggest problem I have with your products is pitch, push, and position; pitching and positioning a minor league product at a major league price, then pushing additional products out the door that the market couldn't support. I feel that you tried to buy credibility in the marketplace with the exclusive contracts, and exploited the opinions and reputations of a few of the bigger rookie card collectors. The (still unanswered) questions about Upper Deck's alleged involvement with Razor didn't help, the whole Inkworks issue made matters worse, the authenticity questions about some of the Presidential Cuts was unforgivable for such a high end product, and your "as long as the distributors buy it, it's worth doing" approach to products is a business plan that lacks vision. Sure you may be able to make $ on repacking a bunch of old yearbooks, but are you honestly proud to have put that out into the marketplace? What's next: Signed album covers? Index cards?

I collect minor league cards to a certain extent. I'm looking forward to the new Topps product, and have purchased boxed of UD's Minor league cards in the past. I've bought Tri-Star, the occasional Just card, hell, I'll even buy closeout Classic Wax for the occasional fun rip. Razor's baseball cards aren't the greatest looking cards, but aren't bad, and I'd probably be willing to pick up a few singles later on down the line, but wouldn't pay some insane premium for them, as they are just minor league cards, nothing more, nothing less.

Learn to listen to your harshest critics when they aren't offering "constructive criticism". They are going to tell you thing things you don't want to hear.

[quote="Sean_C":uacfl4hv]Whenever I read or am reminded about Razor, I can't help but think of the movie "Boiler Room".

Edit to update: Considering the "sincere" PM I got from Brian thanking me for my kind words and support. I figure I should clarify what I mean by my comment. Razor reminds me of 1 specific aspects of the movie; the scene where Seth is explaining how they get such big commissions on the sale of the stock because the owner of the firm is tied to the companies , and that their firm is the only one selling the particular stock. Without those brokers pushing the stock, there would be no market. Without the push that Razor received here, I don't think there would have been much of a market for their cards.

Honestly, if you ever gave a single constructive criticism rather than just blind bashing, I would love to hear honest thoughts.

300lb, NYC3 and even Jeff N. have expressed criticisms before, which while I may not completely agree, I respected because they truly attempted to criticism in a respectful constructive way.

With that being said, Boiler Room is one of my favorite movies ever (and not for the behavior you imply in your post).

BG

[/quote:uacfl4hv]

That is fair enough. We finally agree on one thing, the best criticism comes form non-fans. I am just pleased to see it spelled out in a somehwhat repsctful unbiased way. BG

 

[Razor]

To address your concerns:

1> oval office autographs... NO AUTOGRAPH HAS EVER BEEN DEEMED NON-AUTHENTIC BY ONE OF THE TWO MAJOR AUTHENTICATION COMPANIES!... Regardless, to make sure our customers were nothing less than pleased, we did replace ONE cut which was called into question. In addition, we did also replace one 2007 Poker cut (before I owend company, but I still helped customer feel comfortable).

2> Baseball... It was NOT priced like a major league product. Find me a MLB box with 10 autos for $75 or 5 letterman for $75 and Ill eat my foot. It was priced VERY fair considering our cost basis in the autographs. While the items may not have worked, it was not a price issue. In this, I am confident.

3> Relationships... Razor is not owned or funded by any other manufacturer. We have addressed this enough to make us blue in the face. As a side note (not sure if its related), the person making these "accusations" has resigned from MLB players association. Razor was funded by many years profits from our distribution company, "Edgeman". Edgeman was one of the 3-4 biggest distribution companies in the history of this industry (ask around).

4> Hype.... YES, I am excited to take on the establishment. And, I don't think it was a bad rookie effort. With that being said, weve taken some time to analyze the state of the market and are now better prepared IF we do baseball again. I can assure you, well let the product do the talking, not me.

5> Repackaging... Unfortunately, the unispired efforts of the BIG 3 manufacturers has led to a market where people beg to buy items that provide originality and excitement. Our repack items have done precisely that. They have brought a pack element to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING that people collect. Wax is fun. We are just brining the fun places where it isn't in the current hobby. CIf its fun, its good for the hobby. The hobby has been running low on fun for a long time.

6> Listening... You are all correct. We need to LISTEN to our customers, not just hear them. The last 6 months has been a time of reflection and I am confident the lessons learned will serve us well as we enter the world of licensed products in 2010.

Sorry for all the words, but I am not one to avoid answering important questions.
BG

 

[NYCrulesU]

2 things I've learned over the years, Brian:

1). Unless you like the person or product, never give away market research (aka opinions) for free
2). The best criticism you will ever receive are from the people angriest with your product

The biggest problem I have with your products is pitch, push, and position; pitching and positioning a minor league product at a major league price, then pushing additional products out the door that the market couldn't support. I feel that you tried to buy credibility in the marketplace with the exclusive contracts, and exploited the opinions and reputations of a few of the bigger rookie card collectors. The (still unanswered) questions about Upper Deck's alleged involvement with Razor didn't help, the whole Inkworks issue made matters worse, the authenticity questions about some of the Presidential Cuts was unforgivable for such a high end product, and your "as long as the distributors buy it, it's worth doing" approach to products is a business plan that lacks vision. Sure you may be able to make $ on repacking a bunch of old yearbooks, but are you honestly proud to have put that out into the marketplace? What's next: Signed album covers? Index cards?

I collect minor league cards to a certain extent. I'm looking forward to the new Topps product, and have purchased boxed of UD's Minor league cards in the past. I've bought Tri-Star, the occasional Just card, hell, I'll even buy closeout Classic Wax for the occasional fun rip. Razor's baseball cards aren't the greatest looking cards, but aren't bad, and I'd probably be willing to pick up a few singles later on down the line, but wouldn't pay some insane premium for them, as they are just minor league cards, nothing more, nothing less.

Learn to listen to your harshest critics when they aren't offering "constructive criticism". They are going to tell you thing things you don't want to hear.

Applauded and thanked!

 

[allstars]

Edgeman was one of the 3-4 biggest distribution companies in the history of this industry (ask around).

Brian, was Edgeman ever a direct distributor for Topps or Upper Deck or Wizards of the Coast?

 

[domino2012]

So what's the entry fee on the world series of poker, around $10g's? On heck of a redemption if you pull one and win the qualifying tournament.

Or if you suck like I do, sell to someone who thinks they can do it!

Ok, I want this bad! Seriously, I'm a regular on-line poker player and you can find me under the same user name as here on Poker Stars. I've won some satellites and often reach the top 50 players. I want to pull a redemption BADLY. Now, living over here, would that change anything? If it's only open to US residents then I guess I'm out of luck. I'd do a lot to get into the final 9 for a place at the WSOP!!!!

 

[Razor]

Edgeman was one of the 3-4 biggest distribution companies in the history of this industry (ask around).

Brian, was Edgeman ever a direct distributor for Topps or Upper Deck or Wizards of the Coast?

NO... we were the largest secondary market distributor in the business with sales of over $50 million in a number of years...
BG

 

[Crash Davis]

You just don't get it.

I repeated your words. You said your product was a good value @ factory cost (1500) in response to poster who said that most everyone who bought your Presidential Cuts product got their ass handed to them. You never defended your product at the current retail price.

To be fair based upon your statement would be to compare Topps UFC 1 @ FACTORY COST, which was much $69 I believe, and NOT the 350-400 you quotes. Again, you twist and turn the facts so as to make your product look much better than it really is. I respect the salesman aspect of your game, but you seem to take a lot of people on these boards for fools, which they are not

I am going to take the advice of some wise members and not argue with you in this forum.
It is clear you are not a fan of our brand, which is totally fine.
I will stand behind the fact that Oval office (even at $2700) had you broken all 99 boxes returns more than 95% of all products produced today.

I will end this conversation with you by saying that your relationships with another manufacturer do somewhat taint the sincerity of your "constructive criticism". But regardless, I appreciate your feedback and it has been noted.

BG[/quote]


Not looking for an argument, Brian. I'm looking for an answer, which you obviously had/have no intention of providing.

This statement really got me laughing:

"I will stand behind the fact that Oval office (even at $2700) had you broken all 99 boxes returns more than 95% of all products produced today."

How can you say that with a straight face? That's like Bernie Madoff saying: "I guarantee that you will get 20% return on your investment every year no matter what"

I'm curious to see the market research you, or your Team, performed to back up that statement.

 

[cgilmo]

it's probably just an off the cuff statement Crash


Let's face it most wax has about a %15-%35 secondary market return (another off the cuff statement with no research at all.)


I personally think people are nuts for ripping products like oval office, but hey people do nutty things in this hobby all the time. I once saw a guy open 3 cases of topps co-signers, man that was brutal.