So, it's a consensus that Topps screwed up TChrome...

[Lifelongfan]

There is a bit of a "bait-and-switch" going on here, and we've never called out the companies (especially Topps when prospects/rookies are concerned), so now we're just stuck with the system. Someone more lawyerly than me correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't fundamentally changing the product (i.e., the odds) after money is paid a bait-and-switch?

But we, as the hobby guys, don't have a lot of room to complain, as we weren't running to distributors or anyone else we pre-bought 2010 Bowman for and asking if we could give them MORE money b/c case prices tripled...

I keep hearing this arguement---but I pre-ordered that as well after looking at the sell sheet---Its not like anyone who bought a case of Bowman was guranteed a "Golden Ticket"---you were just given the chance to pull what was on the sell sheet----They didnt shorten the print run. Why would distributors be entitled to more money because a product becomes hot. The Bowman name wasent driving the craziness--the possibility of pulling a few of the cards on the sell-sheet was. That arguement does'nt hold water with me.

 

[nyc3]

People felt this was easy money, and once again topps proves it isnt an atm. Didnt the sell sheet/checklist have a bunch a TBA's? That should have been red flag #1 if it did.

 

[Lifelongfan]

TBA's would have been better than the saturated junk we got.

 

[rico08]

From the sellsheet:

WITH 2 SIGNED-ON CARD AUTOGRAPHED ROOKIE CARDS IN EVERY HOBBY BOX,
2010 TOPPS CHROME BASEBALL OUTSHINES THEM ALL!

?Signed On Autographed Cards of the 2010 USA Baseball Collegiate
Team on Topps technology. One Per Case! Hobby Exclusive!

And from the original checklist:
Autographs
221 Jason Heyward
222 Scott Sizemore
223 Mike Leake
224 Austin Jackson
225 Allen Craig
226 Jenrry Mejia
227 Bryan Anderson
228 Ruben Tejada
229 Drew Butera
230 Ike Davis
231 Jon Link
232 Jesse English
233 Tyson Ross
234 Ian Desmond
235 Mike McCoy
236 Tommy Manzella
237 Kanekoa Texeira
238 Michael Brantley
239 Daniel McCutchen
240 TBD
241 Sergio Santos
242 Alex Burnett
243 Wilson Ramos
244 TBD
245 TBD
Plus Strasburg added later.

 

[rbadger]

I was one of the other two guys bmc mentioned and while it is strong to say I was livid, I was certainly not pleased. And I rarely sell anything I pull. I just want to feel like the value is there.

I placed my order when the number of autographs on the checklist was 25 because the value was there for me at the price I was quoted. So you were basically going to snag an auto of every player assuming perfect collation. Once they doubled that number, the game changed and I would not have bought a case at that price if I knew that up front.

That said, it is a fairly fun rip and there are still some strong autos. But the doubling of the autos and the horrible centering really put me off (and I have been defending Topps a lot this year - maybe not so much for the near future).

Totally agree with this! When I preordered my 2 cases, the fact that I was "guaranteed" to get 24 autos per case made me think that even with average luck I would probably pull 1-2 Strasburg autos and likely be able to complete the full auto set (which I enjoy collecting). When they doubled the auto count, my odds of pulling a Stras auto were now cut and half and the possibility of completing the auto set was now impossible, even with 48 unique autos!

 

[SportsCardMojo]

You guys also have to remember, some of these mistakes were probably not deliberate. I still believe that the problems with Topps is due to apathy, not greed.

Alot of the opinions made here on this forum are based on the assumption that Topps is staffed with highly motivated, sports/hobby knowledgable, greedy people. When in reality, it could be staffed with underqualified, non-sports watching employees. Just because it's Topps, doesn't mean every employee can tell you the history of card collecting and the stats of some of the big name players. They are just there to do a job. Maybe it's in the design department. Some of these artist probably don't watch sports or know anything about the players they are designing for. Or the sales guys. They don't collect themselves and never have.

I think in order for Topps to be successful, they need to make an effort to reach out to the customers. Reach out to the hobby shops. Put out less products and spend more time making their existing products awesome. I pre-ordered and I don't regret it even though the price dropped. Because if Strasburg stayed healthy, this topic would be the opposite...about how I got in early and paid less than everyone else. This is regardless of the checklist and the increased autos.

Win some...lose some. Honestly, I think I've become numb to price fluctuations when I started trading stocks these past few years. It's a rollercoaster ride in the stock market. No different than buying cards.

 

[Lifelongfan]

You guys also have to remember, some of these mistakes were probably not deliberate. I still believe that the problems with Topps is due to apathy, not greed.

Alot of the opinions made here on this forum are based on the assumption that Topps is staffed with highly motivated, sports/hobby knowledgable, greedy people. When in reality, it could be staffed with underqualified, non-sports watching employees. Just because it's Topps, doesn't mean every employee can tell you the history of card collecting and the stats of some of the big name players. They are just there to do a job. Maybe it's in the design department. Some of these artist probably don't watch sports or know anything about the players they are designing for. Or the sales guys. They don't collect themselves and never have.

I think in order for Topps to be successful, they need to make an effort to reach out to the customers. Reach out to the hobby shops. Put out less products and spend more time making their existing products awesome. I pre-ordered and I don't regret it even though the price dropped. Because if Strasburg stayed healthy, this topic would be the opposite...about how I got in early and paid less than everyone else. This is regardless of the checklist and the increased autos.

Win some...lose some. Honestly, I think I've become numb to price fluctuations when I started trading stocks these past few years. It's a rollercoaster ride in the stock market. No different than buying cards.

HUH?

 

[daveyou]

From the sellsheet:

WITH 2 SIGNED-ON CARD AUTOGRAPHED ROOKIE CARDS IN EVERY HOBBY BOX,
2010 TOPPS CHROME BASEBALL OUTSHINES THEM ALL!

?Signed On Autographed Cards of the 2010 USA Baseball Collegiate
Team on Topps technology. One Per Case! Hobby Exclusive!

And from the original checklist:
Autographs
221 Jason Heyward
222 Scott Sizemore
223 Mike Leake
224 Austin Jackson
225 Allen Craig
226 Jenrry Mejia
227 Bryan Anderson
228 Ruben Tejada
229 Drew Butera
230 Ike Davis
231 Jon Link
232 Jesse English
233 Tyson Ross
234 Ian Desmond
235 Mike McCoy
236 Tommy Manzella
237 Kanekoa Texeira
238 Michael Brantley
239 Daniel McCutchen
240 TBD
241 Sergio Santos
242 Alex Burnett
243 Wilson Ramos
244 TBD
245 TBD
Plus Strasburg added later.

you know, with the extra 25 rc autos that they've added....if they had included the likes of aroldis, buster, bumgarner, alvarez (could he be included?)....i think none of us would say a peep but the extra 25 autos are literally garbage....$1 cards....

oh, not sure if you guys mentioned it because i didnt read all the pages. just my thought

dave

 

[PeteD]

? for those bustin' RETAIL.

Does Target have those value packs too? Blasters?

Thx.

 

[predatorkj]

I think , as was said before, you are still gambling on a preorder. Actually its probably worse since , as Gilmore said, you actually know whats on the table when you are gambling. With this you don't. Seeing as that is the way it is, and you know things are apt to change, you are really taking a chance.

QC problems aside, are you guys really upset at more autos?

i think they are upset at the quality of autos that were added. if only 25 autos were in the product and 24 autos are promised a case AND stras, stanton, castro, heyward, matusz, etc are in the FIRST checklist...then 25 other autos are added and it waters it down by...A LOT...

yeah they have a reason to be upset...especially when the buy in for one price and the day it releases it is selling for over $100 cheaper.

I can see if you are trying to put a set together then yeah...it would blow. Fortunately for me, I am never even worried about it anymore because I know that its always going to be a pain in the ass...especially for an auto set. But if that was your primary objective, at least the cards are cheap to go after. Only a few big money guys.

I can also see that the extra autos might water it down a bit if you have a whole slew of guys who aren't worth much.


But my question is: Does this not happen all the time? And if it does, even if it only happens half the time, would you not be looking for it to happen here? I just don't trust anything to chance. I guess some people might. But to tell the truth, like a few others have said, I think what gets most people's goat is the fact that the product is now way cheaper because the Strausburg hype died down. And of course nobody wants to take that kind of hit. But if that is the case, or if you are genuinely upset about the watered down checklist, you might as well never buy another case of anything again because its bound to happen for the duration.

 

[gocubsgo]

From the sellsheet:

WITH 2 SIGNED-ON CARD AUTOGRAPHED ROOKIE CARDS IN EVERY HOBBY BOX,
2010 TOPPS CHROME BASEBALL OUTSHINES THEM ALL!

?Signed On Autographed Cards of the 2010 USA Baseball Collegiate
Team on Topps technology. One Per Case! Hobby Exclusive!

And from the original checklist:
Autographs
221 Jason Heyward
222 Scott Sizemore
223 Mike Leake
224 Austin Jackson
225 Allen Craig
226 Jenrry Mejia
227 Bryan Anderson
228 Ruben Tejada
229 Drew Butera
230 Ike Davis
231 Jon Link
232 Jesse English
233 Tyson Ross
234 Ian Desmond
235 Mike McCoy
236 Tommy Manzella
237 Kanekoa Texeira
238 Michael Brantley
239 Daniel McCutchen
240 TBD
241 Sergio Santos
242 Alex Burnett
243 Wilson Ramos
244 TBD
245 TBD
Plus Strasburg added later.

you know, with the extra 25 rc autos that they've added....if they had included the likes of aroldis, buster, bumgarner, alvarez (could he be included?)....i think none of us would say a peep but the extra 25 autos are literally garbage....$1 cards....

oh, not sure if you guys mentioned it because i didnt read all the pages. just my thought

dave

The 25 autos they added were not the issue. The autos they added are actually better overall minus Strasburg than the players above. Stanton, Boesch, Castro, Nova, Matusz, Stubbs, Heisey, Santana, Colvin are all solid hits in this set.

What killed this is the five fold increase in production vs. 2009. Last year you would get a Gold Refractor per box!!!!! This year they are like 3 per case.

The content was there and this could have been an awesome break if not killed by higher production.

 

[AMAZIN HOF COLLECTOR]

Blowout is giving hobby boxes away at $44.85 each.
Not even a week into the product!! ::facepalm:: ::facepalm:: ::facepalm::

 

[David K.]

Blowout is giving hobby boxes away at $44.85 each.
Not even a week into the product!! ::facepalm:: ::facepalm:: ::facepalm::

Hopefully.....it will be better for the bowman chrome! Great news for set collectors! Nice to see Jeff N! Best regards, David

 

[RZimm11]

From the sellsheet:

WITH 2 SIGNED-ON CARD AUTOGRAPHED ROOKIE CARDS IN EVERY HOBBY BOX,
2010 TOPPS CHROME BASEBALL OUTSHINES THEM ALL!

?Signed On Autographed Cards of the 2010 USA Baseball Collegiate
Team on Topps technology. One Per Case! Hobby Exclusive!

And from the original checklist:
Autographs
221 Jason Heyward
222 Scott Sizemore
223 Mike Leake
224 Austin Jackson
225 Allen Craig
226 Jenrry Mejia
227 Bryan Anderson
228 Ruben Tejada
229 Drew Butera
230 Ike Davis
231 Jon Link
232 Jesse English
233 Tyson Ross
234 Ian Desmond
235 Mike McCoy
236 Tommy Manzella
237 Kanekoa Texeira
238 Michael Brantley
239 Daniel McCutchen
240 TBD
241 Sergio Santos
242 Alex Burnett
243 Wilson Ramos
244 TBD
245 TBD
Plus Strasburg added later.

you know, with the extra 25 rc autos that they've added....if they had included the likes of aroldis, buster, bumgarner, alvarez (could he be included?)....i think none of us would say a peep but the extra 25 autos are literally garbage....$1 cards....

oh, not sure if you guys mentioned it because i didnt read all the pages. just my thought

dave

The 25 autos they added were not the issue. The autos they added are actually better overall minus Strasburg than the players above. Stanton, Boesch, Castro, Nova, Matusz, Stubbs, Heisey, Santana, Colvin are all solid hits in this set.

What killed this is the five fold increase in production vs. 2009. Last year you would get a Gold Refractor per box!!!!! This year they are like 3 per case.

The content was there and this could have been an awesome break if not killed by higher production.

And everything was a result of everything else.

The success of Bowman led to more people ordering the rest of the products.
The more orders led to more production.
They couldn't increase the # of refractors because they are numbered, so they are going to be spread out more.
The solution was mostly the added extra 25 autos.
You'd think people would be happy because more autos are available. But no, because it was harder to hit specific players.
Harder to hit high $ autos leads to people canceling and prices dropping.

So basically, because of the success of Bowman, everyone thought they would get rich off of everything, and Topps couldn't possibly keep up with the demand within the parameters of the refractor numbering system.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

And everything was a result of everything else.

The success of Bowman led to more people ordering the rest of the products.
The more orders led to more production.
They couldn't increase the # of refractors because they are numbered, so they are going to be spread out more.
The solution was mostly the added extra 25 autos.
You'd think people would be happy because more autos are available. But no, because it was harder to hit specific players.
Harder to hit high $ autos leads to people canceling and prices dropping.

So basically, because of the success of Bowman, everyone thought they would get rich off of everything, and Topps couldn't possibly keep up with the demand within the parameters of the refractor numbering system.

Topps probably could've increased the size of the non-auto set if they wanted to instead or in addition to expanding the auto set. Chrome used to have a much, much larger checklist as recently as 2007.

 

[RZimm11]

And everything was a result of everything else.

The success of Bowman led to more people ordering the rest of the products.
The more orders led to more production.
They couldn't increase the # of refractors because they are numbered, so they are going to be spread out more.
The solution was mostly the added extra 25 autos.
You'd think people would be happy because more autos are available. But no, because it was harder to hit specific players.
Harder to hit high $ autos leads to people canceling and prices dropping.

So basically, because of the success of Bowman, everyone thought they would get rich off of everything, and Topps couldn't possibly keep up with the demand within the parameters of the refractor numbering system.

Topps probably could've increased the size of the non-auto set if they wanted to instead or in addition to expanding the auto set. Chrome used to have a much, much larger checklist as recently as 2007.

Agreed, but of course, most people buying 10, 20, 30 cases in bulk don't want base cards, they want Autos. That's where they make their money back. Which is at the core of this argument. I don't fault Topps for adding Autos to fill out the hits in the expanded print run.

The only other option would have been doubling the print run of the original 25 Autos. Then people would have been complaining because there were 100 Strasburgs and Heywards on ebay at the same time and they were worthless because there were so many.

You can't tell me everyone would have been satisfied if they just increased the base cards!

The people complaining aren't really the collectors, they are the big breakers who can't make their investment back because of the changes. Every sell sheet changes before production. It is just magnified because it's the only new thing available. Once BC hits, the TC posts will slow and there will be posts everywhere about BC problems.

I buy a couple boxes a year and am happy with what I got in the one I opened so far. Got 2 autos, and the refractors and inserts matched what was printed on the packs, which is what you should go by. The sell sheets were out 5-6 months ago and things changed. Happens all the time.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

And everything was a result of everything else.

The success of Bowman led to more people ordering the rest of the products.
The more orders led to more production.
They couldn't increase the # of refractors because they are numbered, so they are going to be spread out more.
The solution was mostly the added extra 25 autos.
You'd think people would be happy because more autos are available. But no, because it was harder to hit specific players.
Harder to hit high $ autos leads to people canceling and prices dropping.

So basically, because of the success of Bowman, everyone thought they would get rich off of everything, and Topps couldn't possibly keep up with the demand within the parameters of the refractor numbering system.

Topps probably could've increased the size of the non-auto set if they wanted to instead or in addition to expanding the auto set. Chrome used to have a much, much larger checklist as recently as 2007.

Agreed, but of course, most people buying 10, 20, 30 cases in bulk don't want base cards, they want Autos. That's where they make their money back. Which is at the core of this argument. I don't fault Topps for adding Autos to fill out the hits in the expanded print run.

The only other option would have been doubling the print run of the original 25 Autos. Then people would have been complaining because there were 100 Strasburgs and Heywards on ebay at the same time and they were worthless because there were so many.

You can't tell me everyone would have been satisfied if they just increased the base cards!

The people complaining aren't really the collectors, they are the big breakers who can't make their investment back because of the changes. Every sell sheet changes before production. It is just magnified because it's the only new thing available. Once BC hits, the TC posts will slow and there will be posts everywhere about BC problems.

I buy a couple boxes a year and am happy with what I got in the one I opened so far. Got 2 autos, and the refractors and inserts matched what was printed on the packs, which is what you should go by. The sell sheets were out 5-6 months ago and things changed. Happens all the time.

We know there will *never* be a time when everyone will be satisfied with a release!!

An increased non-auto checklist also would have enabled them to keep lower parallel odds (see your reasoning above) which probably would've made more people happy than adding the autos they got. Topps puts all the usual 'elite' suspects in all their releases, there are plenty of 'non-elite' player collectors who'd like to see their players in a chrome issue. Instead of having fifty Matt Cain base cards per case, I'd rather have 25 Matt Cains *and* 25 player X/Francisco Cervelli base cards (assuming Francisco didn't make the set).

I'm definitely in agreement with you in that the 'short-term' people (sellers & investors) are miffed and the long-term people (collectors) are probably ok with this if not happy. I like the idea of getting boxes half MSRP. Although I'd rather get a variety of base cards than the same base over and over and over again.

 

[RZimm11]

And everything was a result of everything else.

The success of Bowman led to more people ordering the rest of the products.
The more orders led to more production.
They couldn't increase the # of refractors because they are numbered, so they are going to be spread out more.
The solution was mostly the added extra 25 autos.
You'd think people would be happy because more autos are available. But no, because it was harder to hit specific players.
Harder to hit high $ autos leads to people canceling and prices dropping.

So basically, because of the success of Bowman, everyone thought they would get rich off of everything, and Topps couldn't possibly keep up with the demand within the parameters of the refractor numbering system.

Topps probably could've increased the size of the non-auto set if they wanted to instead or in addition to expanding the auto set. Chrome used to have a much, much larger checklist as recently as 2007.

Agreed, but of course, most people buying 10, 20, 30 cases in bulk don't want base cards, they want Autos. That's where they make their money back. Which is at the core of this argument. I don't fault Topps for adding Autos to fill out the hits in the expanded print run.

The only other option would have been doubling the print run of the original 25 Autos. Then people would have been complaining because there were 100 Strasburgs and Heywards on ebay at the same time and they were worthless because there were so many.

You can't tell me everyone would have been satisfied if they just increased the base cards!

The people complaining aren't really the collectors, they are the big breakers who can't make their investment back because of the changes. Every sell sheet changes before production. It is just magnified because it's the only new thing available. Once BC hits, the TC posts will slow and there will be posts everywhere about BC problems.

I buy a couple boxes a year and am happy with what I got in the one I opened so far. Got 2 autos, and the refractors and inserts matched what was printed on the packs, which is what you should go by. The sell sheets were out 5-6 months ago and things changed. Happens all the time.

We know there will *never* be a time when everyone will be satisfied with a release!!

An increased non-auto checklist also would have enabled them to keep lower parallel odds (see your reasoning above) which probably would've made more people happy than adding the autos they got. Topps puts all the usual 'elite' suspects in all their releases, there are plenty of 'non-elite' player collectors who'd like to see their players in a chrome issue. Instead of having fifty Matt Cain base cards per case, I'd rather have 25 Matt Cains *and* 25 player X/Francisco Cervelli base cards (assuming Francisco didn't make the set).

I'm definitely in agreement with you in that the 'short-term' people (sellers & investors) are miffed and the long-term people (collectors) are probably ok with this if not happy. I like the idea of getting boxes half MSRP. Although I'd rather get a variety of base cards than the same base over and over and over again.

True enough on the bolded!!!

Good point on the lower end guys and all the doubles. I am all in favor of more base, just because I love making sets.

I haven't gone through my box yet to see how many doubles I have yet. Hoping to make a set though. I have another box coming, then picking up some Blasters and such from Wallyworld and Target to finish it off. I don't have the cash for Autos, so I'll be happy with just the base, non-autos.

 

[allstars]

You guys also have to remember, some of these mistakes were probably not deliberate. I still believe that the problems with Topps is due to apathy, not greed.

Alot of the opinions made here on this forum are based on the assumption that Topps is staffed with highly motivated, sports/hobby knowledgable, greedy people. When in reality, it could be staffed with underqualified, non-sports watching employees. Just because it's Topps, doesn't mean every employee can tell you the history of card collecting and the stats of some of the big name players. They are just there to do a job. Maybe it's in the design department. Some of these artist probably don't watch sports or know anything about the players they are designing for. Or the sales guys. They don't collect themselves and never have.

I think in order for Topps to be successful, they need to make an effort to reach out to the customers. Reach out to the hobby shops. Put out less products and spend more time making their existing products awesome. I pre-ordered and I don't regret it even though the price dropped. Because if Strasburg stayed healthy, this topic would be the opposite...about how I got in early and paid less than everyone else. This is regardless of the checklist and the increased autos.

Win some...lose some. Honestly, I think I've become numb to price fluctuations when I started trading stocks these past few years. It's a rollercoaster ride in the stock market. No different than buying cards.

WHAT? No bitching & moaning???

(very well put)

 

[RZimm11]

You guys also have to remember, some of these mistakes were probably not deliberate. I still believe that the problems with Topps is due to apathy, not greed.

Alot of the opinions made here on this forum are based on the assumption that Topps is staffed with highly motivated, sports/hobby knowledgable, greedy people. When in reality, it could be staffed with underqualified, non-sports watching employees. Just because it's Topps, doesn't mean every employee can tell you the history of card collecting and the stats of some of the big name players. They are just there to do a job. Maybe it's in the design department. Some of these artist probably don't watch sports or know anything about the players they are designing for. Or the sales guys. They don't collect themselves and never have.

I think in order for Topps to be successful, they need to make an effort to reach out to the customers. Reach out to the hobby shops. Put out less products and spend more time making their existing products awesome. I pre-ordered and I don't regret it even though the price dropped. Because if Strasburg stayed healthy, this topic would be the opposite...about how I got in early and paid less than everyone else. This is regardless of the checklist and the increased autos.

Win some...lose some. Honestly, I think I've become numb to price fluctuations when I started trading stocks these past few years. It's a rollercoaster ride in the stock market. No different than buying cards.

Truest statement yet!