The final word on the 2010 Bowman Wrapper Redemption

[Moonlight Graham]

Tapping into the conventional wisdom of this knowledgeable group... as someone who has bought two (2) cases of a product ever, (Bowman Chrome and UD Golf) do you think that buying a case or two of Bowman Chrome draft makes sense? It seems that the checklist isn't considered very strong at this time, but I am thinking about the cases for sitting on for a short while. It seems that a lot of distributors might have overextended themselves, at least temporarily, and may order Draft in shorter quantities. Coupled with other healthy but cautious dealers that don't want to get caught up in another Bowman Chrome type oversaturation, orders may be even lower... Topps will likely not print as much as usual, and a shortage could occur. I am pretty sure that the risk of oversaturation of draft is negligible, as it would harm Topps long term. Is my thinking way off on this?

 

[rico08]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

Self control on Topps' part is better for them in the long term but maybe they doubt the staying power of the sports card hobby.

 

[SportsCardMojo]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

I honestly think this situation could not have been avoided. That's just capitalism.

I mean...if you had the hottest prospect exclusively signed to you and your first product out the gate took off like a rocket, how could you not make the most of it. Strasburg is an athlete with a limited window of opportunity. Once you miss that boat, there's no do overs. He is only a rookie once. Couple that with the rest of the strong rookie class and we all had this coming to us...Topps, dealers, retailers, collectors.

I don't think Topps had a responsibility to do anything towards the hobby. They are in the business of making money. Bottom line. They wouldn't be as big as they are if they weren't. They do not control the ebb and flow of the hobby, nor do they dictate the rules by which the hobby follows.

I would say the situation is more akin to big tobacco or beverage companies. They create products that make people happy but used incorrectly, they can kill people easily. Thus, they put a disclaimer on their products to warn people, but they can't control who buys their stuff or how much of it people want to consume. It's not their decision. They aren't holding a gun to anyone's head or banking on people getting drunk and killing people in a car accident. And if that's too extreme...then we can use Coke as an example. They use High Fuctose Corn Syrup which is believed to be the leading cause of obesity in our country. It's cheap and easy to manufature, but it's making everyone fat! Should Coke be blamed for making everyone overweight? Or the people that distribute it?

Anyway, I agree the situation sucks and everyone has a right to be upset. And the shockwaves will definitely close down some businesses and hurt many people. But in no way is this 100% Topps fault or even 50%. Everyone had a part in this debacle. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This conversation could have been totally different if Strasburg remained healthy, Heyward was ROY and Posey was MVP of the World Series. Everyone would have rode Strasburg into the sunset and we'd be preparing ourselves for next year's Harper-mania.

 

[Leaf]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

I honestly think this situation could not have been avoided. That's just capitalism.

I mean...if you had the hottest prospect exclusively signed to you and your first product out the gate took off like a rocket, how could you not make the most of it. Strasburg is an athlete with a limited window of opportunity. Once you miss that boat, there's no do overs. He is only a rookie once. Couple that with the rest of the strong rookie class and we all had this coming to us...Topps, dealers, retailers, collectors.

I don't think Topps had a responsibility to do anything towards the hobby. They are in the business of making money. Bottom line. They wouldn't be as big as they are if they weren't. They do not control the ebb and flow of the hobby, nor do they dictate the rules by which the hobby follows.

I would say the situation is more akin to big tobacco or beverage companies. They create products that make people happy but used incorrectly, they can kill people easily. Thus, they put a disclaimer on their products to warn people, but they can't control who buys their stuff or how much of it people want to consume. It's not their decision. They aren't holding a gun to anyone's head or banking on people getting drunk and killing people in a car accident. And if that's too extreme...then we can use Coke as an example. They use High Fuctose Corn Syrup which is believed to be the leading cause of obesity in our country. It's cheap and easy to manufature, but it's making everyone fat! Should Coke be blamed for making everyone overweight? Or the people that distribute it?

Anyway, I agree the situation sucks and everyone has a right to be upset. And the shockwaves will definitely close down some businesses and hurt many people. But in no way is this 100% Topps fault or even 50%. Everyone had a part in this debacle. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This conversation could have been totally different if Strasburg remained healthy, Heyward was ROY and Posey was MVP of the World Series. Everyone would have rode Strasburg into the sunset and we'd be preparing ourselves for next year's Harper-mania.

Topps absolutely has a reponsibility to the hobby. If they arent careful, they will not only bite the hand that feeds them, but they will decimate whats left of the industry/business. The problem is that they had the ability to "do something about this" when disaster struck. Dealers begged to reduce orders or asked for extended time to pay. Topps gave them the cold shoulder.

BG

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

Greed IS good if it leads to innovation... However, within the monopoly that is baseball cards , it seems innovation has given way to complacency. BG

There hasn't been innovation in baseball cards in years.

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

I honestly think this situation could not have been avoided. That's just capitalism.

I mean...if you had the hottest prospect exclusively signed to you and your first product out the gate took off like a rocket, how could you not make the most of it. Strasburg is an athlete with a limited window of opportunity. Once you miss that boat, there's no do overs. He is only a rookie once. Couple that with the rest of the strong rookie class and we all had this coming to us...Topps, dealers, retailers, collectors.

I don't think Topps had a responsibility to do anything towards the hobby. They are in the business of making money. Bottom line. They wouldn't be as big as they are if they weren't. They do not control the ebb and flow of the hobby, nor do they dictate the rules by which the hobby follows.

I would say the situation is more akin to big tobacco or beverage companies. They create products that make people happy but used incorrectly, they can kill people easily. Thus, they put a disclaimer on their products to warn people, but they can't control who buys their stuff or how much of it people want to consume. It's not their decision. They aren't holding a gun to anyone's head or banking on people getting drunk and killing people in a car accident. And if that's too extreme...then we can use Coke as an example. They use High Fuctose Corn Syrup which is believed to be the leading cause of obesity in our country. It's cheap and easy to manufature, but it's making everyone fat! Should Coke be blamed for making everyone overweight? Or the people that distribute it?

Anyway, I agree the situation sucks and everyone has a right to be upset. And the shockwaves will definitely close down some businesses and hurt many people. But in no way is this 100% Topps fault or even 50%. Everyone had a part in this debacle. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This conversation could have been totally different if Strasburg remained healthy, Heyward was ROY and Posey was MVP of the World Series. Everyone would have rode Strasburg into the sunset and we'd be preparing ourselves for next year's Harper-mania.

Topps absolutely has a reponsibility to the hobby. If they arent careful, they will not only bite the hand that feeds them, but they will decimate whats left of the industry/business. The problem is that they had the ability to "do something about this" when disaster struck. Dealers begged to reduce orders or asked for extended time to pay. Topps gave them the cold shoulder.

BG

So to sum it up, you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their own actions. I'm pretty sure nobody held a gun to any distributors/collectors head and forced them to order.

 

[matfanofold]

While I agree that Topps does have a responsability to the hobby, it's not exactly clear cut like in the late 80's -early 90's where they just let the presses roll till cards were all but obsolete. Even with the print run here, if Cashburg did not go down and his hype was intact, these products would be selling well. Therefore, it was directly the ones ordering in hopes to cash in on hype that demanded Topps make enough to fill demand(read: NOT overproduce).

To say this preticular instance is Topps fault is fruitless. The prefect storm of the Strasburg hype crash and buyers remorse led to this. And if not for those 2 variables, this product would have been a sucess. Again, to fault Topps for this is casting a very slimey stone.

 

[Leaf]

Greed IS good if it leads to innovation... However, within the monopoly that is baseball cards , it seems innovation has given way to complacency. BG

There hasn't been innovation in baseball cards in years.

Somewhat true, however there isnt even incentive to deliver "fair" value anymore.
BG

 

[Leaf]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

I honestly think this situation could not have been avoided. That's just capitalism.

I mean...if you had the hottest prospect exclusively signed to you and your first product out the gate took off like a rocket, how could you not make the most of it. Strasburg is an athlete with a limited window of opportunity. Once you miss that boat, there's no do overs. He is only a rookie once. Couple that with the rest of the strong rookie class and we all had this coming to us...Topps, dealers, retailers, collectors.

I don't think Topps had a responsibility to do anything towards the hobby. They are in the business of making money. Bottom line. They wouldn't be as big as they are if they weren't. They do not control the ebb and flow of the hobby, nor do they dictate the rules by which the hobby follows.

I would say the situation is more akin to big tobacco or beverage companies. They create products that make people happy but used incorrectly, they can kill people easily. Thus, they put a disclaimer on their products to warn people, but they can't control who buys their stuff or how much of it people want to consume. It's not their decision. They aren't holding a gun to anyone's head or banking on people getting drunk and killing people in a car accident. And if that's too extreme...then we can use Coke as an example. They use High Fuctose Corn Syrup which is believed to be the leading cause of obesity in our country. It's cheap and easy to manufature, but it's making everyone fat! Should Coke be blamed for making everyone overweight? Or the people that distribute it?

Anyway, I agree the situation sucks and everyone has a right to be upset. And the shockwaves will definitely close down some businesses and hurt many people. But in no way is this 100% Topps fault or even 50%. Everyone had a part in this debacle. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This conversation could have been totally different if Strasburg remained healthy, Heyward was ROY and Posey was MVP of the World Series. Everyone would have rode Strasburg into the sunset and we'd be preparing ourselves for next year's Harper-mania.

Topps absolutely has a reponsibility to the hobby. If they arent careful, they will not only bite the hand that feeds them, but they will decimate whats left of the industry/business. The problem is that they had the ability to "do something about this" when disaster struck. Dealers begged to reduce orders or asked for extended time to pay. Topps gave them the cold shoulder.

BG

So to sum it up, you think people shouldn't be held accountable for their own actions. I'm pretty sure nobody held a gun to any distributors/collectors head and forced them to order.

No, on the contrary the distributors and dealers should shoulder some pain.
However, Topps made 108,000 boxes (when historical demand was 30,000 or less).
Their cost to make the item is $20 or less ($16-18 probably), they wholesale at $51.35

With that incredible profit margin.....
Do you think they couldnt at least give dealers an extra 30-60 days to pay?
Maybe give them the ability to reduce orders by 10%-20%?
Maybe give them a small rebate as a token of good will?
(In any of the above examples, the dealer still takes 80-90% of the balme/fault/financial punishment)

Im just saying that Topps has essentially "shot the finger" to its loyal wholesale customers.
That sort of brazen disregard WILL have a cost.
BG

 

[Leaf]

While I agree that Topps does have a responsability to the hobby, it's not exactly clear cut like in the late 80's -early 90's where they just let the presses roll till cards were all but obsolete. Even with the print run here, if Cashburg did not go down and his hype was intact, these products would be selling well. Therefore, it was directly the ones ordering in hopes to cash in on hype that demanded Topps make enough to fill demand(read: NOT overproduce).

To say this preticular instance is Topps fault is fruitless. The prefect storm of the Strasburg hype crash and buyers remorse led to this. And if not for those 2 variables, this product would have been a sucess. Again, to fault Topps for this is casting a very slimey stone.

As I said before, the bartender has a responsibility to say when is enough, especially when the patron is drunk and cannot rationally behave.
(Strasburg was the drink of choice in this case)

BG

 

[mancini79]

It's hard to put a lot of blame on Topps for the production. It's only termed "over production" because of the Stras fall out. Topps fulfilled orders and was using pre-orders to determine demand, since they couldn't use 09 numbers. They are now exclusive in baseball, so they are solely responsible for supplying just enough product.
What they are to be blamed for is the way they promoted BC. Stating that USA Buybacks would be included in the product before the product hit the shelves made it seem like they would be in packs. There was no reason to believe wrapper redemptions would be the only way to get them. Topps knew when BC shipped, there was going to be some kind of promotion, but did not disclose it til a week later. The least they could have done was send a press release to keep wrappers and stay tuned for more details.

 

[kentuckyderby]

Also, its not about if Topps made more money. It is about the fact they have financially strangled EVERYONE in the distribution channel. The distributors and dealers are trying to "TAP OUT" and Topps won't release the chokehold.

Hopefully, they won't cause irreversible damage.
BG

Sucks when card companies make poor decisions that screw things up

 

[mancini79]

LOL at the thread title "Final Word" on a 12 page thread.

 

[kentuckyderby]

It's in Topps' best interest to make the distributors happy. Since Topps doesn't sell direct to the consumer, the distributor is the supply chain. If distributors are losing money on their product, they will shift their money elsewhere. Take BC for example. Dist. have $$ tied up in cases and either don't have $$ to buy more product, or will take the risk and buy the competition (ITG, other sports, etc). Demand for cards are not inelastic. Saying that another distributor will make up the loss is incorrect. Why would anyone want to risk 2010 BDP if Topps has a history of having a losing product. In addition, there will be less total orders for the product and less $$ for Topps. Topps must find a way to increase BC demand.

Topps overproduced because that's what their pre-orders dictated.

Shame on all of you for buying in to the Strasburg hype. Shame on the Distributors. Shame on the end-consumers.

If it was the other way around, and Strasburg won ROY and Cy Young, and walked on water, these converstaions would not be taking place no matter how many cases were produced.

To say that Topps put a stranglehold on the industry is ridiculous. Nobody put a gun to any distributors head to buy this crap in obscene quantity. They got greedy, just like everybody else did.

Just like when everybody bought beanie babies for $5 because they thought they would be worth more money in two months when the new "retirements" were announced. Did TY put a stranglehold on all of the Hallmark stores who upped their orders from 10 dozen to 100 dozen because their customers demanded more Beanie Babies? Nope.

Greed should be a four-letter word when it comes to the baseball card industry and what it all boils down to me is greed.

Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.

I always like reading your posts

 

[Leaf]

Also, its not about if Topps made more money. It is about the fact they have financially strangled EVERYONE in the distribution channel. The distributors and dealers are trying to "TAP OUT" and Topps won't release the chokehold.

Hopefully, they won't cause irreversible damage.
BG

Sucks when card companies make poor decisions that screw things up

Fortunately until now, those mistakes havent been big enough to cripple the financial health of the wholesale side of the business.
BG

 

[kentuckyderby]

When Bowman Draft included extra autos here and there the previous couple years and also had the AFLAC autos did those who bought pre-order style send Topps extra cash?

If a company lies, they should be scolded

 

[mancini79]

When Bowman Draft included extra autos here and there the previous couple years and also had the AFLAC autos did those who bought pre-order style send Topps extra cash?

If a company lies, they should be scolded

When somebody lies to me, I get bent. Doesn't matter what they have done in the past. A lie is a lie.

 

[Leaf]

When Bowman Draft included extra autos here and there the previous couple years and also had the AFLAC autos did those who bought pre-order style send Topps extra cash?

If a company lies, they should be scolded

Agreed.

I personally took criticism for having to change plans for a 2008 Metal release design despite what we had previously planned. I took the brunt of it. Fine, that was deserved. ( As a side note, reusing a design pales to lying about inserting autos, watering down the checklist after solicited and printing more cases than even Cashburg could have justified).

Now that Topps has committed what is at least a misleading omission (knowingly not putting in USA BUYBACKS) and quite possibly false advertising, I am shoicked complete revolt isnt in the works. At least if inserted in boxes, it would be a random chance to pull them. Now that it is a wrapper redemption, who knows?

You dont have to agree that they have any repsonsibility to the hobby, but I do know that among dealers and distributors TOPPS has done great harm to their reputation and credibility.

Just ask any of the 12 master distributors sitting at the Topps Distirbutor meeting (in Las Vegas) as we speak.
A fact is a fact.
BG

 

[matfanofold]

"Dear Valued customer, we at Topps have decided that your order of 10 cases is simply too much. We have down graded you to 2 cases. It's our belief that you can not sell 10 cases and the demand your customers have are inaccurate. Please let those know who want to purchase this product that it's our intention to more accurately guage your real demand and as such re evaluate what your customers really want.

Further more, in the future, please note that we will no longer accept pre orders or orders of any kind. Rather, we will inform you as to what we feel you should be able to sell and provide accordingly. We have listened to those who believe we have a responsability akin to a bartender, and will do our best from here on out to make sure that you do not go over your limit of what you can handle.

Best regards, [strike:1sqdof5t]BG[/strike:1sqdof5t] Topps."

 

[Leaf]

"Dear Valued customer, we at Topps have decided that your order of 10 cases is simply too much. We have down graded you to 2 cases. It's our belief that you can not sell 10 cases and the demand your customers have are inaccurate. Please let those know who want to purchase this product that it's our intention to more accurately guage your real demand and as such re evaluate what your customers really want.

Further more, in the future, please note that we will no longer accept pre orders or orders of any kind. Rather, we will inform you as to what we feel you should be able to sell and provide accordingly. We have listened to those who believe we have a responsability akin to a bartender, and will do our best from here on out to make sure that you do not go over your limit.

Best regards, [strike:209gyi9m]BG[/strike:209gyi9m] Topps."

LOL... How about:

Dear Valued customer,

We recently solicited orders for 2010 Bowman Chrome Baseball (releasing in November). Unfortunately, demand for this item far exceeded the scheduled print run for this item. Therefore, we unfortunately are reducing all orders by 33% in an effort to fairly allocate the print run. This is necessary in order to keep the integrity of traditional insert rates (colored refractors) and the integrity of the quality checklist we previously announced .

As a collectible company, we hope you can appreciate our commitment to producing limited edition collectibles designed to deliver both enjoyment and long term value. Thank you for your support.

Best regards, Topps

***

Despite the blatant silliness of your post, you do realize that Topps allocates items (cuts orders) all the time and reduces distributor orders all the time (for example, MMA Knockout releasing in December).

Why should this have been different?

I dont expect collectors to understand or appreciate the devastation created by these 3-4 lemon products. It doesnt change the reality that nearly $4-5 million dollars will be lost by dealers and dsitributors on these 4 releases. This is devastating. It is easy to crack jokes behind a computer or expect dealers to suck it up, but delaers cannot make the $$$ necessary to take these sorts of hits. My apologies for the passion defending these dealers the slightest bit.

BG