Why Beckett is a JOKE

[jswaykos]

My question is, what was ever so confusing in the first place? The only thing that ever made my head spin was what the hell came in a box/pack of Bowman (post-2004 or so).

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

But perhaps the biggest goal behind technology is to make life easier and less complex. Granted we generally want certain aspects of the world and our lives to grow, I'm not sure cards - simple but beautiful pieces of cardboard with limited purpose and limited, if any, 'technology' - are one of those aspects. As I wrote before cards aren't cars.

While I agree having one (licensed) manufacturer is less confusing, and twenty releases much better than 35, there will be probably what, at least 100,000 different/unique cards produced in 2010 categorized by Beckett? So I'm saying the big idea is to not make things more complex. Cards are too 'simple' if you will to support an overly complex infrastructure to support them, I think the people that license cards understand this. I also agree cards are waaay more complex than they were even 25 years ago.

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

What hasn't become more complicated in the last, say, ten years?

When I bought my first cell phone, it made phone calls. It also had the game Snake. That's it. Now, there's podcasts, texting, picture messaging, apps, cameras, GPS, Bluetooth, etc.

Ten years ago, when I wanted music I had to actually go out to a record store and buy a CD. Now I can just hop online and download it for free from a torrent site.

I remember when no one knew what DVD's were. Now they're becoming obsolete with Bluray.

My first desktop computer cost $2000. Now, I can get a computer half the size with 20x the operating power for $500.

Everything changes and evolves. If you can't adapt to the changing times, you'll be left in the dust.

Ten years ago, Topps, Upper Deck, Fleer, Donruss, and Pacific cranked out 30-40 sets apiece. Now, only Topps is left and they produce 20 sets a year. And you think this is somehow MORE confusing?

 

[carrsallstars]

With that title I was wondering if you were referring to the price guide, the grading service, or the website!?

 

[bigalbert]

if it wasnt for beckett, none of us would be here

The nail just got hit right on the head

 

[ThoseBackPages]

RIP Beckett

 

[011873]

I read SCU and while I dont agree with all his opinions, he is TOTALLY right that more choices the better.

Think like this, if you collect Baseball cards, your choices for 2010 have been retro or very low end. Thats it. Well, unless you count a totally overpriced prospect product.

Gone are the days of QUALITY $5 packs using modern day technology.
Gone also are NON RETRO $4 packs released before the AS break. Now we have to wait until the season is over to find those.

But we still have massively overpriced TTT for your pack opening "pleasure" ::facepalm::

 

[ThoseBackPages]

I read SCU and while I dont agree with all his opinions, he is TOTALLY right that more choices the better.

Think like this, if you collect Baseball cards, your choices for 2010 have been retro or very low end. Thats it. Well, unless you count a totally overpriced prospect product.

Gone are the days of QUALITY $5 packs using modern day technology.
Gone also are NON RETRO $4 packs released before the AS break. Now we have to wait until the season is over to find those.

But we still have massively overpriced TTT for your pack opening "pleasure" ::facepalm::

DLP did it to themselves, nobodys fault but their own for destroying the 1/1 market

 

[predatorkj]

About ebay prices, I've heard the argument that it's the best out there as it's "the most someone is willing to pay".

However, this is not true. When you see an ended auction and assuming there are multiple bidders, you are only seeing the most the second bidder is willing to pay.

No...you are seeing what a few online bidders were willing to pay. Not what an actual average of all people in the hobby would be willing to pay. Its like I always say...here in Houston...the astros are top sellers. Yet try selling a Bagwell card up in say...Chicago. You won't realize the same price. And its not accurate to go by one or the other so all you can do is have an average. In all reality there is no real price for cards. We make them up as we go. And the price you know and understand as real...is only the price that you think is right.

::facepalm::

If there are multiple bidders, the ending auction price is the maximum amount the second highest bidder was willing to pay. When that person bid, they put that number as their max. If every bidder in that auction was willing to pay the same amount, you would see this in the page that shows the bidders and their max bids.

I really don't even understand what you were trying to get at with the rest of your post as it doesn't even correlate to what I was saying.

I was simply trying to say that what you are seeing is what a few online bidders are willing to pay. pretty straightforward if you ask me. You can look at the bids and see who maxed out their bids and at what price. Even still...what I was really getting at is that there are still too many factors to use the price and call it accurate.
1. you might only be selling to a certain kind of collector. Maybe the bidders were mostly set collectors. Maybe they were mostly player collectors.
2. Maybe someone would have been willing to pay more but wasn't on ebay. Say they hadn't checked in a week and totally missed the auction. Or forgot to bid or snipe. Maybe they don't use ebay at all.

Those are just two of the factors out of many. My point was in reference to the bolded above. There are way too many factors and what you see with a completed auction is what the participants were willing to pay. Which means very little. But you in most cases(assuming there are more than two bidders) you see what a myraid of people are willing to pay. Once their bid gets knocked out of course. Yet you never know what the high bidder was willing to pay. So I agree with you on that. But you do have the chance to see what a range of people will pay.

Ah, I think I see where I was getting confused is because you started out with "no" but the idea that what you were getting at is pretty much what I agree with.

I by no means agree that a final bid on ebay is exact/definite/the most accurate. My only point was when people say that ebay is the most accurate as it shows the most someone is willing to pay, referring to the ending price, which is not the case as the high bidder may very well have bid $100 more than the hammer price. So essentially, we have no idea what the "most someone is willing to pay" really is. Just as an under bidder may have changed their mind and wanted to come back to bid but a life event happens. We just don't know.

There are TONS of reasons why ebay prices are not the most accurate but I get the feeling you're in sync with that already.

Bottom line is, everything should be used/viewed as a tool. Not a be all that ends all. That's why Beckett is called a guide and as some have already said, it gives a range for a card low value/high value. People need to know how to use all of the tools, combine them as they see fit for their own personal collecting goals, and go from there.

Yep...we are totally on the same page. But I think not knowing how much a person is willing to pay(i.e. the top bidder who has a max bid in that we cannot see) is what bothers me the most. That ,combined with the fact that you can see some pretty crazy bidding wars, is what kills it for me. I think ebay allows some of the top collectors the chance to hone in on their favorite player and its why I just will never be able to respect the train of thought that what we are seeing is even minutely indicative of what the hobby really values the card at. And on the flip side...I have seen people pay an assload of money(including myself) for items at a shop or show. Way over ebay prices.

I don't know. Ebay is just really weird. Its almost like...its the best place to go to get deals but its also one of the craziest places to go because a bidding war can ensue.

 

[predatorkj]

Magazines have gone downhill. It's sad actually. I miss the glory days of magazines. Never expected them to disappear...

I do as well. Plus things like the local newspaper. Used to...if you purchased the Houston Post or the Chronicle...it was huge. Now...they are about the size of the Galveston Daily News. People just prefer to do all their reading online now days. I actually had my newspaper carrier call us and offer to give us several months of free newspapers if we signed on for three more months. Its gotten that bad.

 

[predatorkj]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Just my 2...

Beckett of the past...
I remember when Beckett was the holy grail of baseball card collecting, we would sit around the shop quizzing each other on listed prices and 90% of shop/store goers had one folded in their back pocket. It was much more than a guide back then, it was relevent. More times than not you could expect to sell your cards for the 'LOW' price, and buy them at the 'HIGH' price as this was the rule of thumb for most. People would flock to the local shops the day Beckett was released like a flock of geese to a newly formed pond. Beckett was card collecting then, it defined the terms, and opened the world of collecting to the masses.

Beckett of today...
Today, Beckett has lost it's relevence, and although I do feel it's a decent guide for thoes who do not shop e-bay. It's more so that the hobby has changed, and printed material offered on a monthly basis simply can not keep up with the changes happening hourly/daily. Yet having said that, I think it's still a good 'guide' for thoes who wish to use it as such. It offers much more in the way of reading material and current content now, and the actual pricing has almost taken a back seat to that. Still, I think the Beckett has it's place in the hobby, but it's fading..

Beckett of tomorrow...
I can help but believe that Beckett as a printed 'price guide' has it's days numbered. With the ease of buying, selling, and getting accurate value(s) at ones fingertips getting easire and more convienient by the day, Becketts relevence as printed material(s) is going to die. The only direction they will go is to focus all of there pricing efforts on the web site. Making the pricing more dynamic and current to the hourly/daily fluxuation of cards. I think it's possible for Beckett printed media to stay, but it will have to focus more on 'the state of the hobby' issues, and break it off in to segments like 'Beckett Baseball Vintage' , 'Beckett Baseball - Prospector', ect.. And only report like hot list(s), top price jumpers, interesting hobby stuff, ect...

True but what really kills it is that a good portion of base cards...which seem priceable to a degree, are not cared about any longer. The only stuff people care about is low numbered autos/GU/patches. And anything numbered /25 or lower isn't priced. Yet the manufacturers churned out millions of these cards. So Beckett can't even price them and its really skeletal when you look at the price guide. Set *** High BV=$10 . Parallel set yada yada yada=no pricing due to scarcity, no pricing due to scarcity, no pricing due to scarcity. And on to the next set...

 

[Gellman]

if it wasnt for beckett, none of us would be here

The nail just got hit right on the head

I dont think anyone is debating their place in the promotion and history of this hobby, as Beckett's history is long and convoluted. However, now, they dont have even a smidgeon of the relevance they once did.

 

[matfanofold]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Just my 2...

Beckett of the past...
I remember when Beckett was the holy grail of baseball card collecting, we would sit around the shop quizzing each other on listed prices and 90% of shop/store goers had one folded in their back pocket. It was much more than a guide back then, it was relevent. More times than not you could expect to sell your cards for the 'LOW' price, and buy them at the 'HIGH' price as this was the rule of thumb for most. People would flock to the local shops the day Beckett was released like a flock of geese to a newly formed pond. Beckett was card collecting then, it defined the terms, and opened the world of collecting to the masses.

Beckett of today...
Today, Beckett has lost it's relevence, and although I do feel it's a decent guide for thoes who do not shop e-bay. It's more so that the hobby has changed, and printed material offered on a monthly basis simply can not keep up with the changes happening hourly/daily. Yet having said that, I think it's still a good 'guide' for thoes who wish to use it as such. It offers much more in the way of reading material and current content now, and the actual pricing has almost taken a back seat to that. Still, I think the Beckett has it's place in the hobby, but it's fading..

Beckett of tomorrow...
I can help but believe that Beckett as a printed 'price guide' has it's days numbered. With the ease of buying, selling, and getting accurate value(s) at ones fingertips getting easire and more convienient by the day, Becketts relevence as printed material(s) is going to die. The only direction they will go is to focus all of there pricing efforts on the web site. Making the pricing more dynamic and current to the hourly/daily fluxuation of cards. I think it's possible for Beckett printed media to stay, but it will have to focus more on 'the state of the hobby' issues, and break it off in to segments like 'Beckett Baseball Vintage' , 'Beckett Baseball - Prospector', ect.. And only report like hot list(s), top price jumpers, interesting hobby stuff, ect...

True but what really kills it is that a good portion of base cards...which seem priceable to a degree, are not cared about any longer. The only stuff people care about is low numbered autos/GU/patches. And anything numbered /25 or lower isn't priced. Yet the manufacturers churned out millions of these cards. So Beckett can't even price them and its really skeletal when you look at the price guide. Set *** High BV=$10 . Parallel set yada yada yada=no pricing due to scarcity, no pricing due to scarcity, no pricing due to scarcity. And on to the next set...

This is the exact reason(s) I believe that in the future, for Beckett publication(s) to stay relevant, they need to move all of there pricing efforts to online. Create a dynamic database that can(and will) be updated in real time, so even the 'base' cards, and 'no pricing due to scarcity' listing can be monitered and adjusted accordingly and current. The publications need to focus on 'pulse of the hobby' interests, and perhaps simply highlight top movers and loosers, new products, ect.. Change to a 'hobby publication' fro a 'price guide'.

 

[jesrockz]

I still enjoy reading Beckett, but the one thing that is really starting to irk me is the fact that IT'S AUGUST FN 23RD AND I JUST GOT THE NOVEMBER ISSUE IN THE MAIL! WTF??!!! HOW CAN A NOVEMBER ISSUE BE RELEVANT WHEN IT'S RELEASED IN FN AUGUST!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

 

[fkw]

The problem is NEW CARDS, not necessarily The Beckett Price Guides.

Even thought IMO Dr. Beckett and his guides are Horse Cr@p, and have been for the last 32 years.

New Cards will ALWAYS have a "supply and demand" problem that will swing values up and down drastically within a short time frame, and will for a few years until the market has a chance to even out on these cards as they get older and more well known overall (older ie. 30-40+ years old).


Vintage cards (PreWar... not Topps/Bowman) dont have this problem. The market is fairly set on them and the collectors who religiously follow these cards know what they are worth.

If someone ask me how much is a R319 Ruth #144 in VG is worth???, and how has its value changed in last 30 years...... I can tell you its est. value all the way back to 1980, as Ive followed them daily for that long, and have bought and sold over 20 of them in that time frame.

PS eBay is the best place to est. a value of a collectible. But the collectible also need to be fairly common so you can average out the Ended Auctions to find the True Value in the Real World. It wont work if the card you want to value is only seen on eBay once a year or once every 5 years.

 

[autocut]

bottom line is that the hobby has gotten too big for Beckett to keep up with. They don't have the manpower which is why vintage prices has dust on them. I still have a 1992 Beckett Future Stars Issue #13 in front of me with Ken Griffey Jr. on the cover. It lists minor league sets from 1975 through 1991. Then you had the price guide that focused on vintage. Now, Beckett consolidated everything because the cost of printing vs. profit margin. There are too many cards and products for Beckett to track prices. It's more of a "trade" guide than a sell guide. There are a lot of unreleased cards, backdoored cards, short print cards, etc. out there that Beckett has no clue about. Beckett can't even be transparent about where their reported prices come from.

Even with all of that, I wouldn't say Beckett is a joke. They provide a "guide" with reasonable trade values to start from. It becomes a joke when people see it as a bible. Beckett's real analyst are its customers.

 

[predatorkj]

PS eBay is the best place to est. a value of a collectible. But the collectible also need to be fairly common so you can average out the Ended Auctions to find the True Value in the Real World. It wont work if the card you want to value is only seen on eBay once a year or once every 5 years.

Well with stuff numbered to /5 you might still have a problem. Hell...maybe even as high as /100. Stuff can really fluctuate on the values and whatnot. Collector interest wanes and waxes(did I use that right?) for even older stuff. Look at the 90's stuff. IMO...a daily updated online catalog is just way too costly to operate. It would take a hell of a lot of time and effort plus you'd have to get ebay's approval if you charged for it because now you are using info that is provided by them. The only reason nobody(ebay) does anything now is because you, me, or that guy in the corner over there can easily pull up ebay and do a search for completed listings. But we don't charge each other for the info. Plus who the hell is gonna subscribe to that if we can do it ourselves for free as it is? About the only thing it would be good for is historically cataloging info and even then...if something hasn't appeared on ebay in over a year and its a hot commodity, chances are the prices from the past won't mean jack.

I really just don't like using ebay for that. I let people use it to price stuff but IMO you are always going to pay more for any given item based on a number of factors such as: location, brick and mortar or online, which site you used online, which player it is, if its a new set people are trying to build, how heavily is the player collected, how much are the top collectors willing to spend on said items(which is indicative of jack since what the top collectors will pay hardly equals what everyone else will) etc.


Let me put it how I see it in a short example. I buy Bagwell cards. No duh right? I go on ebay and I win a card that is not from a heavily collected set. I win it for the opening bid of $0.99 plus $3 to ship. Say its numbered to /50. Say I go to a shop locally(around or in Houston) and I see the same card. Now I know damn good and well it will cost me at least $8-$10 if not more depending on the shop. Now say I go online and the same card card is selling again(the same card but not the same serial number of course) and someone has already bid on it. So now if I want another copy of that card, I have to pay more than I originally did and quite possibly even more than I would at a shop. Maybe less. Now say I go to a show and have to pay $10-$15 for it. And then I go to sportlots or naxcom and its $12.

Kind of confusing I know but the point is...why on earth would I quote the value based on only ebay when I have at least three other sources of a possible value? Ebay is only one source and there is a damn good possibility I may be paying less or more on ebay than I would other places. No big deal as long as all the other sources are factored in. But like I said...ebay is not used by everybody. And not all cards sold are sold on ebay. I purchased a large portion of Bagwell (and other) cards on naxcom and at local shows and shops for two years. I know damn good and well I paid more per card than I would have on ebay for quite a few but I didn't use to trust ebay. So I know that even as misguided as my trust in naxcom and local shop and show prices was...I was still affecting the market. An effect, that if left up to a lot of you, would not even be factored.

That is the problem. Even if you say "Yeah well you are a ******* Pred...its not our fault you were snoozing while all of us got our deals". Maybe so. But I thought what we were really after is a way to ascertain the values for cards based on the largest amount of data available and if you are only looking for the info in one source...you are cutting yourself short. It would be different if I was the lone idiot buying cards at overpriced margins or even underpriced in some circumstances. But you really think I am the only one?

 

[Greg Cleveland]

bottom line is that the hobby has gotten too big for Beckett to keep up with. They don't have the manpower which is why vintage prices has dust on them. I still have a 1992 Beckett Future Stars Issue #13 in front of me with Ken Griffey Jr. on the cover. It lists minor league sets from 1975 through 1991. Then you had the price guide that focused on vintage. Now, Beckett consolidated everything because the cost of printing vs. profit margin. There are too many cards and products for Beckett to track prices. It's more of a "trade" guide than a sell guide. There are a lot of unreleased cards, backdoored cards, short print cards, etc. out there that Beckett has no clue about. Beckett can't even be transparent about where their reported prices come from.

Even with all of that, I wouldn't say Beckett is a joke. They provide a "guide" with reasonable trade values to start from. It becomes a joke when people see it as a bible. Beckett's real analyst are its customers.

"That's a bingo!"

 

[cgilmo]

I think predatorkj is about to earn a title.

 

[LazerShow15]

Does anyone else think that the Beckett Price guide is an absolute JOKE??? A card is not WORTH what Beckett says it is worth. A card is worth what it is selling for on the open market! When you can buy a card that books for $100 for $10 on Ebay... the card is not worth $100. These jokers crack me up putting all of their BIN prices at listed Beckett value. Just had to vent a little bit. I would love to see an actual price guide that listed the values of cards based on what they were selling for at the current time. Any other thoughts on this, have at it!!!!

The Beckett Price Guide is just that, a Guide. You cannot just go off of Ebay to get what cards are going for. On Ebay there are so many different variables and so much competition. You also have shows and card stores that sell cards at book value or more. It all evens out.

 

[predatorkj]

I think predatorkj is about to earn a title.

What did I do wrong now? :? ::facepalm:: :lol: