Why Beckett is a JOKE

[RiceLynnEvans75]

About ebay prices, I've heard the argument that it's the best out there as it's "the most someone is willing to pay".

However, this is not true. When you see an ended auction and assuming there are multiple bidders, you are only seeing the most the second bidder is willing to pay.

No...you are seeing what a few online bidders were willing to pay. Not what an actual average of all people in the hobby would be willing to pay. Its like I always say...here in Houston...the astros are top sellers. Yet try selling a Bagwell card up in say...Chicago. You won't realize the same price. And its not accurate to go by one or the other so all you can do is have an average. In all reality there is no real price for cards. We make them up as we go. And the price you know and understand as real...is only the price that you think is right.

::facepalm::

If there are multiple bidders, the ending auction price is the maximum amount the second highest bidder was willing to pay. When that person bid, they put that number as their max. If every bidder in that auction was willing to pay the same amount, you would see this in the page that shows the bidders and their max bids.

I really don't even understand what you were trying to get at with the rest of your post as it doesn't even correlate to what I was saying.

 

[predatorkj]

I TOTALLY, 100% agree with the paragraph about price guides affecting people coming back to the hobby. I can't even count the number of people that have discovered my love of cards, only to bust out their old boxes and ask me how much their cards are 'worth'. When I tell them 'nothing', to just enjoy them, they get offended and say it used to be worth $*** in the price guide. Well, sorry, but Travis Lee flamed out. And they discovered millions of sets of 89 Fleer were produced. And they're STILL printing '92 Score.

And just as quickly as they attempted to get back into the hobby, they left again. All because their price guide gave them false hope.

I'm not bashing Beckett, and I never have. I generally buy one or two issues a year, and they serve as a great reference for what subsets are where, who's in what, etc. For that purpose, I think it's a great publication. Their articles may not be timely or relevant, but that can be said for almost ANY print publication... it's a sign of the times, more than anything else.

Laughed so hard I choked on my dip over the bolded! :lol:

I agree but my problem is...people who used to collect back in the late 80's and early 90's collected at a time when baseball cards were mainly collected as investments and so they seem to have this disease that only allows them to think about them as investments. They get awful crabby and negative when they are told not to think of this way. Yes its disheartening to find out your old cards are worth nothing. But shame on you for collecting them for that reason anyways. I wish that mindset would just die off already. The days of buying 100 packs at walmart and then putting them in a box somewhere for 20 years and hoping they are worth a fortune are long over.

 

[predatorkj]

About ebay prices, I've heard the argument that it's the best out there as it's "the most someone is willing to pay".

However, this is not true. When you see an ended auction and assuming there are multiple bidders, you are only seeing the most the second bidder is willing to pay.

No...you are seeing what a few online bidders were willing to pay. Not what an actual average of all people in the hobby would be willing to pay. Its like I always say...here in Houston...the astros are top sellers. Yet try selling a Bagwell card up in say...Chicago. You won't realize the same price. And its not accurate to go by one or the other so all you can do is have an average. In all reality there is no real price for cards. We make them up as we go. And the price you know and understand as real...is only the price that you think is right.

::facepalm::

If there are multiple bidders, the ending auction price is the maximum amount the second highest bidder was willing to pay. When that person bid, they put that number as their max. If every bidder in that auction was willing to pay the same amount, you would see this in the page that shows the bidders and their max bids.

I really don't even understand what you were trying to get at with the rest of your post as it doesn't even correlate to what I was saying.

I was simply trying to say that what you are seeing is what a few online bidders are willing to pay. pretty straightforward if you ask me. You can look at the bids and see who maxed out their bids and at what price. Even still...what I was really getting at is that there are still too many factors to use the price and call it accurate.
1. you might only be selling to a certain kind of collector. Maybe the bidders were mostly set collectors. Maybe they were mostly player collectors.
2. Maybe someone would have been willing to pay more but wasn't on ebay. Say they hadn't checked in a week and totally missed the auction. Or forgot to bid or snipe. Maybe they don't use ebay at all.

Those are just two of the factors out of many. My point was in reference to the bolded above. There are way too many factors and what you see with a completed auction is what the participants were willing to pay. Which means very little. But you in most cases(assuming there are more than two bidders) you see what a myraid of people are willing to pay. Once their bid gets knocked out of course. Yet you never know what the high bidder was willing to pay. So I agree with you on that. But you do have the chance to see what a range of people will pay.

 

[RiceLynnEvans75]

About ebay prices, I've heard the argument that it's the best out there as it's "the most someone is willing to pay".

However, this is not true. When you see an ended auction and assuming there are multiple bidders, you are only seeing the most the second bidder is willing to pay.

No...you are seeing what a few online bidders were willing to pay. Not what an actual average of all people in the hobby would be willing to pay. Its like I always say...here in Houston...the astros are top sellers. Yet try selling a Bagwell card up in say...Chicago. You won't realize the same price. And its not accurate to go by one or the other so all you can do is have an average. In all reality there is no real price for cards. We make them up as we go. And the price you know and understand as real...is only the price that you think is right.

::facepalm::

If there are multiple bidders, the ending auction price is the maximum amount the second highest bidder was willing to pay. When that person bid, they put that number as their max. If every bidder in that auction was willing to pay the same amount, you would see this in the page that shows the bidders and their max bids.

I really don't even understand what you were trying to get at with the rest of your post as it doesn't even correlate to what I was saying.

I was simply trying to say that what you are seeing is what a few online bidders are willing to pay. pretty straightforward if you ask me. You can look at the bids and see who maxed out their bids and at what price. Even still...what I was really getting at is that there are still too many factors to use the price and call it accurate.
1. you might only be selling to a certain kind of collector. Maybe the bidders were mostly set collectors. Maybe they were mostly player collectors.
2. Maybe someone would have been willing to pay more but wasn't on ebay. Say they hadn't checked in a week and totally missed the auction. Or forgot to bid or snipe. Maybe they don't use ebay at all.

Those are just two of the factors out of many. My point was in reference to the bolded above. There are way too many factors and what you see with a completed auction is what the participants were willing to pay. Which means very little. But you in most cases(assuming there are more than two bidders) you see what a myraid of people are willing to pay. Once their bid gets knocked out of course. Yet you never know what the high bidder was willing to pay. So I agree with you on that. But you do have the chance to see what a range of people will pay.

Ah, I think I see where I was getting confused is because you started out with "no" but the idea that what you were getting at is pretty much what I agree with.

I by no means agree that a final bid on ebay is exact/definite/the most accurate. My only point was when people say that ebay is the most accurate as it shows the most someone is willing to pay, referring to the ending price, which is not the case as the high bidder may very well have bid $100 more than the hammer price. So essentially, we have no idea what the "most someone is willing to pay" really is. Just as an under bidder may have changed their mind and wanted to come back to bid but a life event happens. We just don't know.

There are TONS of reasons why ebay prices are not the most accurate but I get the feeling you're in sync with that already.

Bottom line is, everything should be used/viewed as a tool. Not a be all that ends all. That's why Beckett is called a guide and as some have already said, it gives a range for a card low value/high value. People need to know how to use all of the tools, combine them as they see fit for their own personal collecting goals, and go from there.

 

[bdrr]

How about this for an example:

Compare the Greats of the Game BuyBacks from 2004 Fleer National Pastime with the same unnumbered versions.

For example:

2000 Enos Slaughter - > $40. Same card, numbered /57 from FNP -> $25
2002 Whitey Ford -> $40. Same card, numbered /67 from FNP -> $30

SAME CARD.

 

[hofmichael]

Many, many, many people also dont realize or know how to use the Beckett correctly either. They just look at the Beckett high value and call that the BV. Beckett is really a range of prices, Low range to high range. If you look at BVs from the range, you will find that more times than not, Beckett is pretty darn close or right on to Ebay values within their ranges (usually to the Low range). Then you will go to card shows and you will see most dealers are pricing their cards in the mid to high range of BV and then you go to a shop and you will find cards are priced to the high range. But yes, use the Beckett ranges from low to high instead of just calling the high value as book value and you will find that Beckett is really not that far off on as many prices as you think.

Thanked

 

[fitefansho]

Beckett used to be an affordable, monthly, collectible magazine that had it's hand on the pulse of the hobby for the specific sport that magazine covered, be it baseball, or football, or hockey, or basketball. Most sets and singles were listed, and the stories were pretty good, the letters from collectors were interesting, the artwork was fun, and the covers generally rocked. I liked the Hot/Cold list, the card commentary, and the focus on individual cards, especially when they would write up the Top 50 most important cards etc or some similar list with blurbs. I used to look forward to the new Beckett and didn't mind plunking down a few bucks for the latest issue. It was a part of the collecting experience. Now it's an overpriced, out of touch magazine with a serious identity crisis, and I would much rather flip through it for free at the book store than pay like 8 or 10 dollars for an issue. It's not just Beckett though, ALL the magazines I used to like have gone downhill in the past 10-15 years...

 

[matfanofold]

Just my 2...

Beckett of the past...
I remember when Beckett was the holy grail of baseball card collecting, we would sit around the shop quizzing each other on listed prices and 90% of shop/store goers had one folded in their back pocket. It was much more than a guide back then, it was relevent. More times than not you could expect to sell your cards for the 'LOW' price, and buy them at the 'HIGH' price as this was the rule of thumb for most. People would flock to the local shops the day Beckett was released like a flock of geese to a newly formed pond. Beckett was card collecting then, it defined the terms, and opened the world of collecting to the masses.

Beckett of today...
Today, Beckett has lost it's relevence, and although I do feel it's a decent guide for thoes who do not shop e-bay. It's more so that the hobby has changed, and printed material offered on a monthly basis simply can not keep up with the changes happening hourly/daily. Yet having said that, I think it's still a good 'guide' for thoes who wish to use it as such. It offers much more in the way of reading material and current content now, and the actual pricing has almost taken a back seat to that. Still, I think the Beckett has it's place in the hobby, but it's fading..

Beckett of tomorrow...
I can help but believe that Beckett as a printed 'price guide' has it's days numbered. With the ease of buying, selling, and getting accurate value(s) at ones fingertips getting easire and more convienient by the day, Becketts relevence as printed material(s) is going to die. The only direction they will go is to focus all of there pricing efforts on the web site. Making the pricing more dynamic and current to the hourly/daily fluxuation of cards. I think it's possible for Beckett printed media to stay, but it will have to focus more on 'the state of the hobby' issues, and break it off in to segments like 'Beckett Baseball Vintage' , 'Beckett Baseball - Prospector', ect.. And only report like hot list(s), top price jumpers, interesting hobby stuff, ect...

 

[fitefansho]

Magazines have gone downhill. It's sad actually. I miss the glory days of magazines. Never expected them to disappear...

 

[ajbraves25]

It's funny, I never hear anybody bitching when they sell card "X" for $40 more than Beckett. They brag that they sold it for more than Beckett. Like when a Prospect is hot, lets say Heyward at the beginning of the season. His Sterlings "booked" at $60. Some were selling as low as $30 for some time and that was the going rate. Once he hit his HR his stuff exploded. Now the same person that had some and was asking $40 for it because it booked at $60 now is getting $100, $125 ect.. That same person doesn't come in here complaining then. It seems to me that most of the time it is people that have bought a card for $60 that books at $100 thinking they got a deal. Now that card sells on ebay for $35 and they are thinking if stupid Beckett would have lowered the price on that card I could've gotten it cheaper.

~AJ

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Just my 2...

Beckett of the past...
I remember when Beckett was the holy grail of baseball card collecting, we would sit around the shop quizzing each other on listed prices and 90% of shop/store goers had one folded in their back pocket. It was much more than a guide back then, it was relevent. More times than not you could expect to sell your cards for the 'LOW' price, and buy them at the 'HIGH' price as this was the rule of thumb for most. People would flock to the local shops the day Beckett was released like a flock of geese to a newly formed pond. Beckett was card collecting then, it defined the terms, and opened the world of collecting to the masses.

Beckett of today...
Today, Beckett has lost it's relevence, and although I do feel it's a decent guide for thoes who do not shop e-bay. It's more so that the hobby has changed, and printed material offered on a monthly basis simply can not keep up with the changes happening hourly/daily. Yet having said that, I think it's still a good 'guide' for thoes who wish to use it as such. It offers much more in the way of reading material and current content now, and the actual pricing has almost taken a back seat to that. Still, I think the Beckett has it's place in the hobby, but it's fading..

Beckett of tomorrow...
I can help but believe that Beckett as a printed 'price guide' has it's days numbered. With the ease of buying, selling, and getting accurate value(s) at ones fingertips getting easire and more convienient by the day, Becketts relevence as printed material(s) is going to die. The only direction they will go is to focus all of there pricing efforts on the web site. Making the pricing more dynamic and current to the hourly/daily fluxuation of cards. I think it's possible for Beckett printed media to stay, but it will have to focus more on 'the state of the hobby' issues, and break it off in to segments like 'Beckett Baseball Vintage' , 'Beckett Baseball - Prospector', ect.. And only report like hot list(s), top price jumpers, interesting hobby stuff, ect...

 

[Gellman]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Ugh, dont even get me started on that argument. I hate when people use that as a rallying cry.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Ugh, dont even get me started on that argument. I hate when people use that as a rallying cry.

I'm assuming you have a non-collecting agenda? Not that I think there's anything wrong with that. I'm looking at things from a collecting perspective...because I'm a collector, although I understand other collectors could have a different POV.

 

[Gellman]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

This is one reason why I try to advocate having greater transparency in the hobby. This way even novice collectors can understand what they have - this includes having fewer releases, having players shown on correct team rosters, etc.

Someone shouldn't have to devote four hours a day every day to enjoy and understand collecting, after a while it becomes work.

Ugh, dont even get me started on that argument. I hate when people use that as a rallying cry.

I'm assuming you have a non-collecting agenda? Not that I think there's anything wrong with that. I'm looking at things from a collecting perspective...because I'm a collector, although I understand other collectors could have a different POV.

If you are a collector, why wouldnt you want as many things to collect as possible?

 

[jswaykos]

If you are a collector, why wouldnt you want as many things to collect as possible?

Agreed... kinda. Some of the product from the last few years was certainly overkill, but what harm was it to have it all available? Now there are a few products and it's all stupidly expensive and I'm buying none of it. I've officially joined the 'singles' camp, and my box bustin' days are done. I refuse to pay Stras-tax for a card I most likely won't pull from an overpriced product, priced that way because I have no other options.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Not to the point where its impossible to keep up with all of it - or to the point where novices entering the hobby -or even 'experts' - become likely to unnecessarily loose money because they're uninformed or are scammed because of all of the choices.

But how much easier would your job in particular be (your blog: VISIT http://WWW.SPORTSCARDSUNCENSORED.COM FOR HOBBY NEWS, SCAMS, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER STUFF YOUR MOM WOULDNT BE PROUD OF.) if there were less to keep track of? Seems like you would have a lot less work if the hobby were less complicated.

Sometimes things grow so big that they grow/support an unnecessary infrastructure that provides undue or harmful influence to its core.

If you are a collector, why wouldnt you want as many things to collect as possible?

 

[Gellman]

Not to the point where its impossible to keep up with all of it - or to the point where novices entering the hobby -or even 'experts' - become likely to unnecessarily loose money because they're uninformed or are scammed because of all of the choices.

I dont see how someone could lose money because they have excess amounts of variety to choose from. Most people just buy what they like, and really have no problem viewing the cards available to buy because of the internet. In terms of getting scammed, thats completely irrelevant in this respect. People would get scammed due to their lack of card intelligence regardless of how many products there were. I think you have this all mixed up.

Now, if you are one of those people who has to have EVERYTHING of a certain player or team, its time to let that go, because thats part of the fun. If I had every card I ever wanted, what is the point of going out to look for the missing pieces. I thought thats what being a collector is all about.

But how much easier would your job in particular be (your blog: VISIT http://WWW.SPORTSCARDSUNCENSORED.COM FOR HOBBY NEWS, SCAMS, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER STUFF YOUR MOM WOULDNT BE PROUD OF.) if there were less to keep track of? Seems like you would have a lot less work if the hobby were less complicated.

It has never been about that. I only write about what is relevant to me, and I do it because its fun. If there were less products out there, I would have less to write about, and that is exactly the opposite of what I want.

Sometimes things grow so big that they grow/support an unnecessary infrastructure that provides undue or harmful influence to its core.

How is it harmful to have variety in a consumer product of any sort? Thats the beauty of competition. I mean, no one complains about the amount of car models around. I find that much more confusing than card products. Yet, now that I am looking around for a new car, I am VERY glad there are a lot of choices.

Take Panini for example. I hate a ton of their products because of the way they look. If I didnt have other choices, I would be **** out of luck. Plus, just because I hate them, doesnt mean there arent a ton of other people who love them. Thats where variety is key.

If you are a collector, why wouldnt you want as many things to collect as possible?

 

[jswaykos]

All I know is that now that there are fewer products the prices have gone WAY up and quality has gone WAY down. Prices are too high for me to justify spending discretionary income on... I'd rather buy other things. Ginter boxes are missing hits, Bowman had serious problems with damage to the chromes (and piss poor centering).

Remember the last time cards became too expensive? I feel like it's happening all over again - they're overpriced.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

If there were less products out there, I would have less to write about, and that is exactly the opposite of what I want.

Not trying to take anything out of context, but I already understood this to be a primary basis of your POV/agenda - you seem to prefer to want to write about the hobby on your blog, which happens to offer advertising. I'm certainly not saying this is a bad or negative thing and don't know (or care) if it produces meaningful income, but I can see why you may think a more complex hobby would be beneficial to you and why, at least in part, you would advocate for a more complex hobby.

A more complex hobby = more agendas, but I'm not sure that the hobby can stay complex without getting newbies or novices contantly involved and keeping the existing base.

People can easily loose money if they think they're buying something but are buying something completely different - which can easily happen when there are too many choices. In particular newbies and novices can be easy victims of this. While they may have big wallets or may not care, they can still make easy marks. Its fairly common knowledge when these folks decide to enter the market...generally when a player makes big news.

Does anybody think competition produces better cards? This has been discussed on these boards before. While competition among car manufacturers clearly produces meaningful innovation, there hasn't been much evidence of this when there were even more brands of cards than there were today. Unlike cars, there are only so many things one can do to cards. While nice looking cards may be motivation to buy cards for certain people, they're generally not the only reason, people probably like to buy their team or player most often, as we know many do so irrespective of how the card looks like.

I don't think we'll agree on much here but it still makes for good discussion nonetheless.

Not to the point where its impossible to keep up with all of it - or to the point where novices entering the hobby -or even 'experts' - become likely to unnecessarily loose money because they're uninformed or are scammed because of all of the choices.

I dont see how someone could lose money because they have excess amounts of variety to choose from. Most people just buy what they like, and really have no problem viewing the cards available to buy because of the internet. In terms of getting scammed, thats completely irrelevant in this respect. People would get scammed due to their lack of card intelligence regardless of how many products there were. I think you have this all mixed up.

Now, if you are one of those people who has to have EVERYTHING of a certain player or team, its time to let that go, because thats part of the fun. If I had every card I ever wanted, what is the point of going out to look for the missing pieces. I thought thats what being a collector is all about.

But how much easier would your job in particular be (your blog: VISIT http://WWW.SPORTSCARDSUNCENSORED.COM FOR HOBBY NEWS, SCAMS, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER STUFF YOUR MOM WOULDNT BE PROUD OF.) if there were less to keep track of? Seems like you would have a lot less work if the hobby were less complicated.

It has never been about that. I only write about what is relevant to me, and I do it because its fun. If there were less products out there, I would have less to write about, and that is exactly the opposite of what I want.

Sometimes things grow so big that they grow/support an unnecessary infrastructure that provides undue or harmful influence to its core.

How is it harmful to have variety in a consumer product of any sort? Thats the beauty of competition. I mean, no one complains about the amount of car models around. I find that much more confusing than card products. Yet, now that I am looking around for a new car, I am VERY glad there are a lot of choices.

Take Panini for example. I hate a ton of their products because of the way they look. If I didnt have other choices, I would be shat out of luck. Plus, just because I hate them, doesnt mean there arent a ton of other people who love them. Thats where variety is key.

 

[JoshHamilton]

I agree with everything here, but would add that not only has the hobby changed, it has become way too complicated.

What hasn't become more complicated in the last, say, ten years?

When I bought my first cell phone, it made phone calls. It also had the game Snake. That's it. Now, there's podcasts, texting, picture messaging, apps, cameras, GPS, Bluetooth, etc.

Ten years ago, when I wanted music I had to actually go out to a record store and buy a CD. Now I can just hop online and download it for free from a torrent site.

I remember when no one knew what DVD's were. Now they're becoming obsolete with Bluray.

My first desktop computer cost $2000. Now, I can get a computer half the size with 20x the operating power for $500.


Everything changes and evolves. If you can't adapt to the changing times, you'll be left in the dust.

Ten years ago, Topps, Upper Deck, Fleer, Donruss, and Pacific cranked out 30-40 sets apiece. Now, only Topps is left and they produce 20 sets a year. And you think this is somehow MORE confusing?