State of the hobby - what are your thoughts on: Products

Personally speaking, I feel the ENTIRE hobby has gotten out of complete control in terms of product on the market. Instead of having one product with one set to make (as was the state of baseball cards, more or less, throughout most the hobby pre 1981), we now have 10+ products from EACH company, most of which has the same exact content in it, in one form or another. Instead of one true RC card, a player can now have about 50 "true rookies" from 50 different products across many manufacturers all within the same year. It waters down the secondary market (way too much for people to chose from) and seems to me to be a player collector nightmare (how do I get all the cards of the guy I like and not go completely broke in the process?!?). I do like choices, but I personally feel there are just too many now.

What I would LOVE to see is a return to the simpler days, but with some element of the modern market in it - that is 3-4 Major label companies (all licensed by MLB), limited to 3 products per year with those three products being a base product that perhaps has series (like Topps I, Topps II, Topps Update/Traded), a mid level product (like an UD SPx) and a top tier product (like National Treasures).

There - there are 3 Major label companies, with three tiers of product. I realize we were running 5-6 companies in the 90's, but they only put out one product (or a series 1/2 type thing) and that kept it managable even still.

Also, if I had to chose, I'd want Upper Deck, Topps, and Panini to be the three companies... Leaf if there were a 4th. Oh - and Topps keeps it's Bowman line!!! Ha ha - ok, ok --- now I'm getting complicated again.

On the other hand, this would mean the end of stuff like Topps Chrome, Triple Threads, Museum Collection, Heritage, Turkey Red, etc. For me personally, this would be a GOOD thing, especially if giving licensing rights to other companies.

I'm not saying just have Topps with a base product as was the case until 1981 (again, more or less - I know there were some other products in there).

What would be a good #? Maybe 25 products per year? I mean, that's 2 a month... seems pretty reasonable to me.

The hobby has turned into very much a lesson on gambling and less a hobby itself. We saw this back when the chase card program started with Upper Deck and Donruss in the early 90's and has been magnified even more today. Not to sound like an old timer but when opening a pack of cards in the old days we looked for cards in that pack we needed for our sets and NOT just for a chase card. For many...not all but many...the hobby has turned into the lottery where base cards are cast aside in favor of that one hit that might bring a return on investment.

For me, this is sad because the lottery mentality has forced increased prices on packs which has done nothing to draw young collectors into the hobby. As a matter of fact I think it has pushed many away. Personally, I do not collect modern so this hasnt hit me but it has taken it's toll on the collector base in general. I know we cannot go backwards and correct this mentality as it is here to stay. As for me I will remain blissfully aware of the hobby in which I grew up with and continue to collect those cards that remind me of an earlier time.

Bill Menard said:

There - there are 3 Major label companies, with three tiers of product. I realize we were running 5-6 companies in the 90's, but they only put out one product (or a series 1/2 type thing) and that kept it managable even still

Click to expand...

What 90's were you living in? These are just the sets from 1999:

1999 Anaheim Angels Police ............................................ 531
1999 Bowman ................................................................... 556
1999 Bowman Chrome ..................................................... 557
1999 Bowman Pre-Production .......................................... 556
1999 Bowman’s Best ........................................................ 559
1999 Bowman’s Best Pre-Production ............................... 558
1999 Bryan Braves ........................................................... 592
1999 Burger King N.Y. Yankees ....................................... 593
1999 Colorado Rockies Police .......................................... 623
1999 Cracker Jack Mac Stickers ...................................... 628
1999 Cracker Jack Mark McGwire Home Run Record ..... 628
1999 Cracker Jack Mark McGwire Spinners..................... 628
1999 Diamond Authentics Signature Series ................... 1814
1999 FanFest Carl Yastrzemski Commemorative ............ 762
1999 Finest ....................................................................... 770
1999 Flair Showcase Row 3 (Power)................................ 782
1999 Fleer ......................................................................... 830
1999 Fleer Mystique ......................................................... 833
1999 FroZsnack’s High-Screamers Lids........................... 912
1999 GTE Tampa Bay Devil Rays .................................... 915
1999 Hillshire Farm Home Run Heroes ............................ 918
1999 Homers Cookies ...................................................... 920
1999 Just Autographs Black ........................................... 1816
1999 Just Imagine........................................................... 1814
1999 Just Justifiable ....................................................... 1815
1999 Just The Start......................................................... 1815
1999 Kahn’s Reds............................................................. 926
1999 Keebler Los Angeles Dodgers ................................. 930
1999 King-B ...................................................................... 934
1999 L.A. Dodgers Concession Stand Cards ................... 940
1999 Lemon Chill Chicago White Sox .............................. 997
1999 McDonald’s Mark McGwire Milestones.................. 1004
1999 McDonald’s St. Louis Cardinals ............................. 1004
1999 Metal Universe ....................................................... 1010
1999 Metal Universe Sample Sheet ............................... 1010
1999 Milwaukee Brewers Diamond Celebration ............. 1015
1999 Minor League Team Sets....................................... 1818
1999 Oh Henry! Toronto Blue Jays................................. 1053
1999 Old Style Chicago Cubs All-Century Team............ 1053
1999 Pacific .................................................................... 1075
1999 Pacific Aurora......................................................... 1076
1999 Pacific Crown Collection ........................................ 1077
1999 Pacific Crown Collection Sample ........................... 1077
1999 Pacific Crown Royale ............................................. 1077
1999 Pacific Invincible .................................................... 1078
1999 Pacific Omega........................................................ 1079
1999 Pacific Omega Sample .......................................... 1079
1999 Pacific Paramount.................................................. 1080
1999 Pacific Paramount Sample..................................... 1080
1999 Pacific Prism.......................................................... 1081
1999 Pacific Prism Sample ............................................. 1081
1999 Pacific Private Stock .............................................. 1081
1999 Pacific Revolution .................................................. 1082
1999 Pacific Sample ....................................................... 1074
1999 Pepsi-Cola Arizona Diamondbacks ....................... 1105
1999 Plumbers Local 342 Oakland A’s........................... 1051
1999 Pop Secret Detroit Tigers....................................... 1153
1999 SI for Kids 10th Anniversary Sheet ........................ 1262
1999 SkyBox E-X Century .............................................. 1202
1999 SkyBox Molten Metal ............................................. 1203
1999 SkyBox Premium ................................................... 1204
1999 SkyBox Thunder .................................................... 1205
1999 SP Authentic .......................................................... 1218
1999 SP Authentic Sample ............................................. 1218
1999 SP Signature Edition .............................................. 1219
1999 SP Top Prospects .................................................. 1816
1999 Sports Illustrated .................................................... 1260
1999 SPx ........................................................................ 1220
1999 Stadium Club ......................................................... 1283
1999 Starting Lineup Classic Doubles ............................ 1816
1999 Team Best BA’s Diamond Best Inserts.................. 1817
1999 Team Best Baseball America’s Diamond Best
Edition ...................................................................... 1816
1999 Team Best Baseball America’s Top Prospects...... 1817
1999 Team Best Player of the Year................................ 1817
1999 Team Best Rookie ................................................. 1817
1999 Team Best Salvino Rookie Bammers Card/
Authenticity............................................................... 1818
1999 Topps..................................................................... 1385
1999 Topps Chrome ....................................................... 1388
1999 Topps Gallery......................................................... 1389
1999 Topps Gallery Pre-Production................................ 1389
1999 Topps Gold Label Class 1...................................... 1390
1999 Topps Gold Label Pre-Production.......................... 1390
1999 Topps Pre-Production............................................ 1385
1999 Topps Stars............................................................ 1391
1999 Topps Stars Pre-Production................................... 1391
1999 Topps TEK............................................................. 1393
1999 Topps TEK Pre-Production .................................... 1393
1999 U.S. Cellular Milwaukee Brewers........................... 1707
1999 UD Ionix ................................................................. 1572
1999 UD Retro................................................................ 1575
1999 Ultra ....................................................................... 1525
1999 Ultra Sample Sheet................................................ 1525
1999 Upper Deck............................................................ 1565
1999 Upper Deck Black Diamond................................... 1567
1999 Upper Deck Century Legends................................ 1568
1999 Upper Deck Challengers for 70.............................. 1569
1999 Upper Deck Encore................................................ 1571
1999 Upper Deck HoloGrFX........................................... 1572
1999 Upper Deck HoloGrFX Sample.............................. 1572
1999 Upper Deck MVP ................................................... 1573
1999 Upper Deck MVP Samples .................................... 1573
1999 Upper Deck Ovation............................................... 1574
1999 Upper Deck PowerDeck......................................... 1575
1999 Upper Deck UD Choice.......................................... 1570
1999 Upper Deck UD Choice Previews.......................... 1570
1999 Upper Deck Ultimate Victory.................................. 1576

I agree. I wish that topps would seriously crank back the presses and eliminate some of these garbage products.

I think that something like:
Topps Series 1
Topps Chrome
Topps Update
1 or 2 Higher end things (Tribute, TTT, Museum, etc.)
Bowman
Bowman Draft

Too many garbage products that don't need to be out there (Finest, Sterling, Bowman Chrome, All the high end stuff)

If we only had those products prices would skyrocket IMO for many things which would be good for this hobby.

Base might not be worth only a penny after all

Unless mlb totally, completely and utterly knocks licensing fees down drastically, no way can any company only issue a few products. It worked fine in the 80s because of mass over production.

Ideally, two licensed companies making 20 products each would be what I think is needed.

But here's the catch, DON'T DO what topps is doing. Sure they have about that many separate products a year but they are generally all similar, very niche oriented.

And I can only assume that crazy high end packs ($50 up) are very profitable because why else would any company purposely alienate the majority they customers?

About FORTY percent of their products have an Srp of $50 or more per pack!

Imho, I think the product lines put out by Donruss in 03-05 are EXACTLY how it should be done.

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maxe0213 said:

I agree. I wish that topps would seriously crank back the presses and eliminate some of these garbage products.

I think that something like:
Topps Series 1
Topps Chrome
Topps Update
1 or 2 Higher end things (Tribute, TTT, Museum, etc.)
Bowman
Bowman Draft

Too many garbage products that don't need to be out there (Finest, Sterling, Bowman Chrome, All the high end stuff)

If we only had those products prices would skyrocket IMO for many things which would be good for this hobby.

Base might not be worth only a penny after all

Click to expand...

Prices may skyrocket on the secondary market but Topps is not in the business of insuring us collectors are going to make money after cracking a few packs. Topps is in the business of selling us as many cards as the market can absorb. If the hobby wants to cut down on the various offerings Topps gives we need to stop buying them. I can guaranty if Topps does not sell out of a product or is stuck with quantities of it you can bet they will re-look at that line and decide to not offer it the following year. The problem is for any line they discontinue there will be something else they throw at us collectors to squeeze that last buck out of our wallets. Again, they are in the profit business and have shareholders to report to....they dont care about resale value.

mchenrycards said:

Prices may skyrocket on the secondary market but Topps is not in the business of insuring us collectors are going to make money after cracking a few packs. Topps is in the business of selling us as many cards as the market can absorb. If the hobby wants to cut down on the various offerings Topps gives we need to stop buying them. I can guaranty if Topps does not sell out of a product or is stuck with quantities of it you can bet they will re-look at that line and decide to not offer it the following year. The problem is for any line they discontinue there will be something else they throw at us collectors to squeeze that last buck out of our wallets. Again, they are in the profit business and have shareholders to report to....they dont care about resale value.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying that Topps cares about that. Didn't say that anywhere in my post. I said the prices would skyrocket for secondary products which would definitely help collectors.

Everyone complains and complains about Topps products but I guarantee the majority of people that complain will still go buy Topps boxes when they are released. I personally will never buy a Topps box again. 99% of the time you will have a loser in the box and with those odds I think I'll pass everytime.

2 companies with 20 products each would be HUGE. Thats wayyy too many BBC

BBCgalaxee said:

Unless mlb totally, completely and utterly knocks licensing fees down drastically, no way can any company only issue a few products. It worked fine in the 80s because of mass over production.

Ideally, two licensed companies making 20 products each would be what I think is needed.

But here's the catch, DON'T DO what topps is doing. Sure they have about that many separate products a year but they are generally all similar, very niche oriented.

And I can only assume that crazy high end packs ($50 up) are very profitable because why else would any company purposely alienate the majority they customers?

About FORTY percent of their products have an Srp of $50 or more per pack!

Imho, I think the product lines put out by Donruss in 03-05 are EXACTLY how it should be done.

Sent from my HTCONE using Freedom Card Board mobile app

Click to expand...

QFT.. Licensing dollars is the reason it just keeps getting worse..

I get what you are saying, but the best overall player in baseball, Mike Trout, only has 6 true RCs from 2011.

Bryce Harper has 16 true RCs from 2012.

Albert Pujols has 43 true RCs from 2001.

Topps does like 22 or so mlb card products a year at retail.

Here's the break down and if I'm leaving something off correct me.

Topps 1, 2, update (all low end)
Opening day (lowest end)

Bowman, bowman chrome, draft, platinum, sterling@, inception@ (all prospects and @= $50+ pack)

Heritage, gypsy queen, ginter, archives (all retro)

Topps Chrome

Tier one, tribute, ttt, five star, museum, finest, wbc (all $50+ packs/mini box)

So tell me, if I am the average collector who wants a little better than low end product with only MAJOR LEAGUERS using modern stock without breaking my wallet, what I buying?

Topps chrome is the only one....ONE!

So if left up to me only, I would axe: gypsy queen, archives, bowman chrome, inception, museum and five star and knowing wbc won't return, I'll that off.

In their places I would release six products which don't alienate most collectors.

You can name those whatever you want but they would have Srp between $4 & $10 per and use modern players, modern stock, modern technology & no prospects.

In other words, these six issues would be a mix of what Donruss put out in the middle 2000s.

And just a note, I would also re do opening day to totally differentiate it from base topps. Using various topps archive designs or making it a "modern heritage", as in only using popular "recent" designs like 87 topps, is a start while keeping it at a buck.










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BBCgalaxee said:

Topps does like 22 or so mlb card products a year at retail.

Here's the break down and if I'm leaving something off correct me.

Topps 1, 2, update (all low end)
Opening day (lowest end)

Bowman, bowman chrome, draft, platinum, sterling@, inception@ (all prospects and @= $50+ pack)

Heritage, gypsy queen, ginter, archives (all retro)

Topps Chrome

Tier one, tribute, ttt, five star, museum, finest, wbc (all $50+ packs/mini box)

So tell me, if I am the average collector who wants a little better than low end product with only MAJOR LEAGUERS using modern stock without breaking my wallet, what I buying?

Topps chrome is the only one....ONE!

So if left up to me only, I would axe: gypsy queen, archives, bowman chrome, inception, museum and five star and knowing wbc won't return, I'll that off.

In their places I would release six products which don't alienate most collectors.

You can name those whatever you want but they would have Srp between $4 & $10 per and use modern players, modern stock, modern technology & no prospects.

In other words, these six issues would be a mix of what Donruss put out in the middle 2000s.










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Click to expand...

Again, not to get into an argument because it is a moot point for me...Topps is looking to maximize profit as they have a licensing agreement they have to pay off as well as suppliers, employees and shareholders. Topps will not ax any product that is making them money. I think the blame is being put on Topps but shouldnt the blame, or at least some of it rest on the shoulders of the collectors who continue to buy this stuff Topps (and other manufactures in years past) are pumping into the hobby? This weekend, while at a dollar store I saw a large assortment of Topps gravity feed product on the shelf. If people were not buying this stuff the stores would not put it on their shelves and the demand will be decreased and Topps would be forced to change their business plan. Topps will not ax products until those products lose profitability. Plain and simple. If we, as collectors show our displeasure by not buying product, Topps would have no choice but to refigure their business model. I just dont see this happening because collectors like to complain about Topps but when it comes time to actually do something about it they just cannot refrain from buying packs.

I'm pretty sure they were the same 90's as you. Please do this for 1991 for me, or 1992, or 1993 or 4 or 5. I'm sure the #'s grow each year. Also, please note I mentioned major label products, so I wouldn't include minor league releases, police sets, stadium type giveaways, hostess, etc... That's still 44 products, but it's also the tail end of the 90s. I'm more inclined to see a drop back down to product options that were there in the earlier 90s.

gracecollector said:

What 90's were you living in? These are just the sets from 1999:

1999 Bowman ................................................................... 556
1999 Bowman Chrome ..................................................... 557
1999 Bowman’s Best ........................................................ 559
1999 Finest ....................................................................... 770
1999 Flair Showcase ................................ 782
1999 Fleer ......................................................................... 830
1999 Fleer Mystique ......................................................... 833
1999 Metal Universe ....................................................... 1010
1999 Pacific .................................................................... 1075
1999 Pacific Aurora......................................................... 1076
1999 Pacific Crown Collection ........................................ 1077
1999 Pacific Crown Royale ............................................. 1077
1999 Pacific Invincible .................................................... 1078
1999 Pacific Omega........................................................ 1079
1999 Pacific Paramount.................................................. 1080
1999 Pacific Prism.......................................................... 1081
1999 Pacific Private Stock .............................................. 1081
1999 Pacific Revolution .................................................. 1082
1999 SkyBox E-X Century .............................................. 1202
1999 SkyBox Molten Metal ............................................. 1203
1999 SkyBox Premium ................................................... 1204
1999 SkyBox Thunder .................................................... 1205
1999 SP Authentic .......................................................... 1218
1999 SPx ........................................................................ 1220
1999 Stadium Club ......................................................... 1283
1999 Topps..................................................................... 1385
1999 Topps Chrome ....................................................... 1388
1999 Topps Gallery......................................................... 1389
1999 Topps Gold Label ...................................... 1390
1999 Topps Stars............................................................ 1391
1999 Topps TEK............................................................. 1393
1999 UD Ionix ................................................................. 1572
1999 UD Retro................................................................ 1575
1999 Ultra ....................................................................... 1525
1999 Upper Deck............................................................ 1565
1999 Upper Deck Black Diamond................................... 1567
1999 Upper Deck Century Legends................................ 1568
1999 Upper Deck Encore................................................ 1571
1999 Upper Deck HoloGrFX........................................... 1572
1999 Upper Deck MVP ................................................... 1573
1999 Upper Deck Ovation............................................... 1574
1999 Upper Deck PowerDeck......................................... 1575
1999 Upper Deck UD Choice.......................................... 1570
1999 Upper Deck Ultimate Victory.................................. 1576

Click to expand...

If I remember right, one of the main"excuses" mlb or topps gave when the monopoly was announced was to get new/past collectors involved.

I don't see how 8/22 products having $50-$500 packs accomplishes that.



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Too many products. There is no longer a need for so many choices.

It is unfortunate, and I have no grounds by which to measure the accuracy of this statement, but I'm pretty sure that a large base of those consumers who support higher end products (the $50 a pack stuff) are not collecting the cards. Rather they are gambling. You already alluded to this.

My guess is that the typical high end pack buster is an adults who was once a collector and know a lot about baseball or follows it closely and would rather gamble in an arena such as this, rather than say the stock market or more easily equatable to gambling, scratch tickets or lotteries. I'd guess the majority of them don't even bother to look at or care about what the actual product looks like as much as they just want a big dollar card that they can sell for more than what the pack cost them to purchase. As long as they get that reward every now and then, they will keep doing it.

You make a logical argument that the way to curb these products and return to a simpler day of simpler product is to stop buying them. And you are right. BUT - here is the problem and why that won't happen. Opening these packs is akin to, actually no, it IS an addiction. That reward center of the brain lights up everytime a nice card comes out that turns a profit for someone. It then drives that person to keep opening the packs and here is what they do - they tell others about the big hit and people think "Wow" I want to pull something like that! And off they go to spend $100, $200, hell $5,000 on high end packs seeking a big money pull. And just like with drugs, lottery tickets, etc., anything really that triggers the reward center of the brain, people become addicted chasing the rare hits. And just like with those other things, there are a lot of losers in the game. And what happens to the loser - they tell themselves, I just need one more try. I know I will hit something good. And what happens to the winners - they say I did it once, I can do it again! and they keep busting too. So, this will NEVER stop. The addiction has been created and has a strong hold on too many people. Also, note that there aren't too many "pack breaks or box breaks" that say "hey, look how badly I did on this product." People want to show off their hits not their bad luck. They want praise not pity. It's the same with how there are many positive research findings that get published, but the negative ones get swept under the rug (which is unfortunate!).


In addition, we as collectors have placed a very high value on some cards and clearly, we will spend large dollars to acquire them (let's face it, Topps doesn't put the value on the cards - we do on the secondary market based on who is willing to pay the most for item x), we drive the very existence of the products. One way to stop the monster is to stop paying so damn much money for cards!

How about a disclaimer too: I was the very person I describe here. I've moved away from it, more or less because I personally hit rock bottom in terms of finances and ability to pay for the gamble. Too many loser boxes to sustain my addiction and when the money ran out, that was the end. It was very very hard to stay away from opening cases... it still is and if I do open something, I immediately feel myself wanting to open more. I've tried very hard to scale back my collecting to truly that - collecting and enjoying the cards for what they are, rather than making them all about money and a flip.

mchenrycards said:

Again, not to get into an argument because it is a moot point for me...Topps is looking to maximize profit as they have a licensing agreement they have to pay off as well as suppliers, employees and shareholders. Topps will not ax any product that is making them money. I think the blame is being put on Topps but shouldnt the blame, or at least some of it rest on the shoulders of the collectors who continue to buy this stuff Topps (and other manufactures in years past) are pumping into the hobby? This weekend, while at a dollar store I saw a large assortment of Topps gravity feed product on the shelf. If people were not buying this stuff the stores would not put it on their shelves and the demand will be decreased and Topps would be forced to change their business plan. Topps will not ax products until those products lose profitability. Plain and simple. If we, as collectors show our displeasure by not buying product, Topps would have no choice but to refigure their business model. I just dont see this happening because collectors like to complain about Topps but when it comes time to actually do something about it they just cannot refrain from buying packs.

Click to expand...

I miss DLP.

I would rather have multiple licensed brands (Topps, UD, Fleer, Donruss, Score, Pacific, Ultra, Bowman, etc.) with only a few products each, than one licensed company and a few unlicensed ones with 20 products each.

As a set collector, I loved the variety from all the different companies in the late '80s and early '90s.

With Topps, I had the base set, Bowman, Finest and Stadium Club.
Fleer had base, Flair and Ultra.
Upper Deck had base UD, Collectors Choice and SP.
Donruss had base and Leaf.
Score had base, Select and Pinnacle.

Packs ranged mostly from 50 cents to $3 or $5 for the high range stuff (until it got super hot).

There were the even occasional large sets aimed at young collectors, like Topps Kids, Donruss Triple Play and UD Fun Packs.

I miss cards in cereal boxes, and granola bar boxes, and sunflower seed packages, and on macaroni and cheese boxes.
Kids love that stuff and makes them want to collect more cards.

I know it was oversaturation, but packs and sets were both cheap and good quality. And I still love looking through all my binders of sets.
Fleer Ultra cards were especially gorgeous.

mchenrycards said:

This weekend, while at a dollar store I saw a large assortment of Topps gravity feed product on the shelf.

Click to expand...

I saw this at a Dollar Store too. Along with these...

I've never been a huge topps fan. And if I do buy wax it's gypsy queen or A&G. That's it. I will never spend. 50-500 on a single pack. No matter the possible return. I'm not in it for money, flip or resale value. It's much cheaper to buy what I want then take that gamble. From a player collector standpoint I don't like 95% of what's made for the few players I do collect. not a fan of sticker autos and GU that have vague verbage.
I admit I am a upper deck homer, but really, up to 2005-2006 they did it right. And that competition made everyone (mostly) better before it all blew up for them.



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Honestly, the state of the hobby is stale. I don't think it has anything to do with how many sets are being released or how few companies are involved. The problem is a lack of originality. There is nothing exciting about new designs. I can open 2010 Topps and get pretty much the same inserts out of 2013 Topps. I can open 2009 Topps Heritage and get pretty much the same inserts as 2012 Topps Heritage (and those are only cool because they have redone an old design). There is just no creativity any more. 1995 Fleer was a disaster, but at least they TRIED something.