NL ROY Voting

[lisu]

That staff would have been outstanding even if one of us was catching. There has been extensive work on looking at catcher's ERA, and nothing has been found to indicate that a catcher has much of an impact. Really good pitchers, which the Giants have in spades, are really good pitchers no matter who catches. Sure, there may be some instances where a guy is more comfortable with a particular catcher, but in all reality, stuff dictates performances, not the catcher. Heck, most of the time the catcher doesn't even have final say in what pitch the pitcher throws.

The bolded statement is not true. A good catcher studies the hitters and notices weaknesses and tendencies and makes calls to the pitcher. If your argument was true, then the Giants would have rushed Buster up at the beginning of the year.

Actually, the pitching coaches, pitchers, and all catchers together, in combination with advanced scouts look at tendencies and make scouting reports. Again, there have been countless studies looking at the effects of "catcher ERA". none of them have shown that there is, over the long haul, an observed effect. Good pitchers are good pitchers for a reason, and it isnt because of the catcher.

As for the Giants not calling up Posey, it was probably a combination of trying to delay his clock and Sabean not being the brightest guy in the world. There is nothing that Molina does better than Posey, and it was laughable that Molina was given another year at the expense of Buster.

Here are some things that a good catcher like Buster does for a team like the Giants.

1. Throwing out base runners. When Buster throws out 37% of base stealers - that is less runners on base taking pressure off of pitchers.

2. Catching foul tips for strike 3. Posey has a knack for catching these. I can't find a statistic for this anywhere.

3. Even if you say that a catcher has no effect on catching pitchers, then why does Lincecum credit Posey for helping him out of his midseason funk?

If catching isn't so important, then how do you explain why teams carry catchers whose sole purpose is to catch? There are a lot more horrible offensive catchers in the MLB than there are horrible offensive right fielders.

 

[nosterbor]

I think that Posey is going to win even though he had a slump in September. He still finished with over a .300 batting average, and the pitching staff had a great month of September with him catching.

+1

 

[nosterbor]

That staff would have been outstanding even if one of us was catching. There has been extensive work on looking at catcher's ERA, and nothing has been found to indicate that a catcher has much of an impact. Really good pitchers, which the Giants have in spades, are really good pitchers no matter who catches. Sure, there may be some instances where a guy is more comfortable with a particular catcher, but in all reality, stuff dictates performances, not the catcher. Heck, most of the time the catcher doesn't even have final say in what pitch the pitcher throws.

The bolded statement is not true. A good catcher studies the hitters and notices weaknesses and tendencies and makes calls to the pitcher. If your argument was true, then the Giants would have rushed Buster up at the beginning of the year.

Actually, the pitching coaches, pitchers, and all catchers together, in combination with advanced scouts look at tendencies and make scouting reports. Again, there have been countless studies looking at the effects of "catcher ERA". none of them have shown that there is, over the long haul, an observed effect. Good pitchers are good pitchers for a reason, and it isnt because of the catcher.

As for the Giants not calling up Posey, it was probably a combination of trying to delay his clock and Sabean not being the brightest guy in the world. There is nothing that Molina does better than Posey, and it was laughable that Molina was given another year at the expense of Buster.

Here are some things that a good catcher like Buster does for a team like the Giants.

1. Throwing out base runners. When Buster throws out 37% of base stealers - that is less runners on base taking pressure off of pitchers.

2. Catching foul tips for strike 3. Posey has a knack for catching these. I can't find a statistic for this anywhere.

3. Even if you say that a catcher has no effect on catching pitchers, then why does Lincecum credit Posey for helping him out of his midseason funk?

If catching isn't so important, then how do you explain why teams carry catchers whose sole purpose is to catch? There are a lot more horrible offensive catchers in the MLB than there are horrible offensive right fielders.

amd most catchers make very good managers.they are in the game every pitch.

 

[FromKoufaxtoEdwin]

That staff would have been outstanding even if one of us was catching. There has been extensive work on looking at catcher's ERA, and nothing has been found to indicate that a catcher has much of an impact. Really good pitchers, which the Giants have in spades, are really good pitchers no matter who catches. Sure, there may be some instances where a guy is more comfortable with a particular catcher, but in all reality, stuff dictates performances, not the catcher. Heck, most of the time the catcher doesn't even have final say in what pitch the pitcher throws.

The bolded statement is not true. A good catcher studies the hitters and notices weaknesses and tendencies and makes calls to the pitcher. If your argument was true, then the Giants would have rushed Buster up at the beginning of the year.

Actually, the pitching coaches, pitchers, and all catchers together, in combination with advanced scouts look at tendencies and make scouting reports. Again, there have been countless studies looking at the effects of "catcher ERA". none of them have shown that there is, over the long haul, an observed effect. Good pitchers are good pitchers for a reason, and it isnt because of the catcher.

As for the Giants not calling up Posey, it was probably a combination of trying to delay his clock and Sabean not being the brightest guy in the world. There is nothing that Molina does better than Posey, and it was laughable that Molina was given another year at the expense of Buster.

Here are some things that a good catcher like Buster does for a team like the Giants.

1. Throwing out base runners. When Buster throws out 37% of base stealers - that is less runners on base taking pressure off of pitchers.

2. Catching foul tips for strike 3. Posey has a knack for catching these. I can't find a statistic for this anywhere.

3. Even if you say that a catcher has no effect on catching pitchers, then why does Lincecum credit Posey for helping him out of his midseason funk?

If catching isn't so important, then how do you explain why teams carry catchers whose sole purpose is to catch? There are a lot more horrible offensive catchers in the MLB than there are horrible offensive right fielders.

Never did I say catching is not important (It probably is the first or second most important position). What i did say is that the premise of Catcher's ERA is a fallacy. Obviously there is a variance of skill for all postions, catcher's included. Things like blocking balls in the dirt, throwing out runners, etc vary from catcher to catcher. Buster is a really good catcher, and never did I say anything else. My point was the guy play less than half of a season at catcher, while Heyward played 135 games in right field. Because the weight given to a catcher is so high, they basically cancel each other out defensively (which is actually a complement to how good Buster is as a catcher.)

As for stuff like Lincecum crediting Posey for his turnaround, etc, I just dont believe in that much at all. Lincecum was the best pitcher in baseball for the two years prior to this one. It's completely possible that Posey saw something that Lincecum, the pitching coach, the scouts etc didnt see and that he completely changed Lincecum's season. A more realistic explanation is that Lincecum is still a freaking good pitcher and things started to fall back into place for him.

 

[GiantsSuperCollector]

That staff would have been outstanding even if one of us was catching. There has been extensive work on looking at catcher's ERA, and nothing has been found to indicate that a catcher has much of an impact. Really good pitchers, which the Giants have in spades, are really good pitchers no matter who catches. Sure, there may be some instances where a guy is more comfortable with a particular catcher, but in all reality, stuff dictates performances, not the catcher. Heck, most of the time the catcher doesn't even have final say in what pitch the pitcher throws.

The bolded statement is not true. A good catcher studies the hitters and notices weaknesses and tendencies and makes calls to the pitcher. If your argument was true, then the Giants would have rushed Buster up at the beginning of the year.

Actually, the pitching coaches, pitchers, and all catchers together, in combination with advanced scouts look at tendencies and make scouting reports. Again, there have been countless studies looking at the effects of "catcher ERA". none of them have shown that there is, over the long haul, an observed effect. Good pitchers are good pitchers for a reason, and it isnt because of the catcher.

As for the Giants not calling up Posey, it was probably a combination of trying to delay his clock and Sabean not being the brightest guy in the world. There is nothing that Molina does better than Posey, and it was laughable that Molina was given another year at the expense of Buster.

Here are some things that a good catcher like Buster does for a team like the Giants.

1. Throwing out base runners. When Buster throws out 37% of base stealers - that is less runners on base taking pressure off of pitchers.

2. Catching foul tips for strike 3. Posey has a knack for catching these. I can't find a statistic for this anywhere.

3. Even if you say that a catcher has no effect on catching pitchers, then why does Lincecum credit Posey for helping him out of his midseason funk?

If catching isn't so important, then how do you explain why teams carry catchers whose sole purpose is to catch? There are a lot more horrible offensive catchers in the MLB than there are horrible offensive right fielders.

Never did I say catching is not important (It probably is the first or second most important position). What i did say is that the premise of Catcher's ERA is a fallacy. Obviously there is a variance of skill for all postions, catcher's included. Things like blocking balls in the dirt, throwing out runners, etc vary from catcher to catcher. Buster is a really good catcher, and never did I say anything else. My point was the guy play less than half of a season at catcher, while Heyward played 135 games in right field. Because the weight given to a catcher is so high, they basically cancel each other out defensively (which is actually a complement to how good Buster is as a catcher.)

As for stuff like Lincecum crediting Posey for his turnaround, etc, I just dont believe in that much at all. Lincecum was the best pitcher in baseball for the two years prior to this one. It's completely possible that Posey saw something that Lincecum, the pitching coach, the scouts etc didnt see and that he completely changed Lincecum's season. A more realistic explanation is that Lincecum is still a freaking good pitcher and things started to fall back into place for him.

How do they cancel out? 75 games at catcher is a lot more wear and tear than 135 games in right field...also Posey is better defensively than Heyward, I just looked at a bunch of stats...

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

My vote would go to Posey, but I'd bet that Heyward wins.

 

[Dice-K Collector]

Gaby Sanchez doesn't qualify ?

Right???

 

[Dice-K Collector]

Posey should definitely win over Heyward.

 

[morgoth]

Pedro Alvarez or Neil Walker doesn't get into the top 10? Really wow.

 

[darocker80]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

 

[RCRX]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Agreed.. Hewyard, Posey and Garcia will be top 3..no doubt. Heyward wins hands down though..

 

[All The Hype]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

 

[lisu]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

It's definitely not about age. The maybe part is only your opinion. They have both had tremendous years. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if either one wins, but the last 2 weeks for Heyward has been pretty horrid, so I think that might give Posey the edge.

 

[stangy24]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

I agree total - BS. Plus, ESPN has the good old east coast bias going, so Heyward has and is going to get their love and hype...

 

[All The Hype]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

It's definitely not about age. The maybe part is only your opinion. They have both had tremendous years. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if either one wins, but the last 2 weeks for Heyward has been pretty horrid, so I think that might give Posey the edge.

I'm not arguing for age or any other factor that ha nothing to do with voting.


I want to know who the "ton of deserving candidates" are that Heyward is going to "shoot past". If you want to say Posey had a better season, then fine, I'm not going to argue with that. But who else is Heyward going to beat in ROY voting that he doesn't deserve to beat based on the season he had?

Again, I can't think of anyone.

 

[jcmint]

Garcia wont win it but his numbers were worthy of first place votes.

 

[GiantsSuperCollector]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":19gf6hmx]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

It's definitely not about age. The maybe part is only your opinion. They have both had tremendous years. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if either one wins, but the last 2 weeks for Heyward has been pretty horrid, so I think that might give Posey the edge.

I'm not arguing for age or any other factor that ha nothing to do with voting.


I want to know who the "ton of deserving candidates" are that Heyward is going to "shoot past". If you want to say Posey had a better season, then fine, I'm not going to argue with that. But who else is Heyward going to beat in ROY voting that he doesn't deserve to beat based on the season he had?

Again, I can't think of anyone.[/quote:19gf6hmx]
Gaby Sanchez maybe...

 

[darocker80]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":t64v6o0l]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

It's definitely not about age. The maybe part is only your opinion. They have both had tremendous years. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if either one wins, but the last 2 weeks for Heyward has been pretty horrid, so I think that might give Posey the edge.

I'm not arguing for age or any other factor that ha nothing to do with voting.


I want to know who the "ton of deserving candidates" are that Heyward is going to "shoot past". If you want to say Posey had a better season, then fine, I'm not going to argue with that. But who else is Heyward going to beat in ROY voting that he doesn't deserve to beat based on the season he had?

Again, I can't think of anyone.

Gaby Sanchez maybe...[/quote:t64v6o0l]
Him and Garcia is who I was thinking

 

[All The Hype]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":c1qn0xm0]

I feel the hype factor is going to shoot Heyward pass a ton of deserving candidates.

Other than maybe Posey, who has had a better year than Heyward?



I can't think of anyone. It's not just hype, he had a tremendous year. And he did it as a 20 year old.

It's definitely not about age. The maybe part is only your opinion. They have both had tremendous years. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if either one wins, but the last 2 weeks for Heyward has been pretty horrid, so I think that might give Posey the edge.

I'm not arguing for age or any other factor that ha nothing to do with voting.


I want to know who the "ton of deserving candidates" are that Heyward is going to "shoot past". If you want to say Posey had a better season, then fine, I'm not going to argue with that. But who else is Heyward going to beat in ROY voting that he doesn't deserve to beat based on the season he had?

Again, I can't think of anyone.

Gaby Sanchez maybe...

Him and Garcia is who I was thinking[/quote:c1qn0xm0]


No way, they may have been close in average/HR/RBI, but Heyward's OBP was 50 points higher. That's a HUGE difference. Another thing that works against Sanchez is that he's a first baseman...which makes Heyward's bat more valuable than his if all other things were equal.

And it's tough to compare pitchers and hitters sometimes, but there's no way Garcia had a better year than Heyward.

 

[kdailey4315]

I know post season doesn't count but has anyone changed their mind about who was the best rookie this year? Heyward didn't do much in the Divisional Series and Posey did good in the Division and was clutch tonight.