The final word on the 2010 Bowman Wrapper Redemption

[crowTrobot]

Is it not a fair estimate to say that these same dealers who have lost 4-5 million (a number I take TREMENDOUS issue with -- if factory cost for a case is 52 * 12, or $624, and the cases are selling for 500, the've only lost 20% of their nut. The entire Topps Bowman Chrome print run was 10M, assuming every case that was sold was sold for a loss of 20%, these dealers lost only $2m. And we know not every case was sold for $500...), made quite a bit of money by selling 2010 Bowman boxes and jumbo boxes for 3 to 5 times the factory cost?

i seriously doubt it's even 20% on BC. obviously distributers pay significantly less than hobby shop factory cost, and presumably they have at least partial price protection or compensation from topps when a product tanks. otherwise there's no way they could stay in business.

 

[Leaf]

I may have been a touch high, but here are estimates:

Bowman chrome - print run $6 mil
Losses (25% min) $ 1.5 million
(most of this is still sitting in warehouses
Around the country).,,,

Topps chrome - print run $4 mil
Losses (25% min) - $1 million

That's $2.5 million before topps Update..
Bg

 

[Leaf]

Is it not a fair estimate to say that these same dealers who have lost 4-5 million (a number I take TREMENDOUS issue with -- if factory cost for a case is 52 * 12, or $624, and the cases are selling for 500, the've only lost 20% of their nut. The entire Topps Bowman Chrome print run was 10M, assuming every case that was sold was sold for a loss of 20%, these dealers lost only $2m. And we know not every case was sold for $500...), made quite a bit of money by selling 2010 Bowman boxes and jumbo boxes for 3 to 5 times the factory cost?

i seriously doubt it's even 20% on BC. obviously distributers pay significantly less than hobby shop factory cost, and presumably they have at least partial price protection or compensation from topps when a product tanks. otherwise there's no way they could stay in business.

No, distributors pay 3% under hobby shops. NO compensation, NO protection. That is exactly why I am calling them out.
How can these guys (delaers/dists) stay in business?????
BG

 

[Leaf]

2010 bowman did do well, but most of the money was NOT
Made by distributors and brick and mortar ..

Its was is Internet retailers mainly
Bg

 

[George_Calfas]

Some of the late 90s products that are wildly popular or scare now had a different model. Companies announced that they would sell "X" amount of cases, some serial numbered. There print run drove the price and player/set speculation. Part of the problem is that the product was announced, orders were taken, then the case run was made to fit the amount ordered. Topps and any others need to establish the case production run first, imho.

 

[bowmanchromeandorr]

It's hard to put a lot of blame on Topps for the production. It's only termed "over production" because of the Stras fall out. Topps fulfilled orders and was using pre-orders to determine demand, since they couldn't use 09 numbers. They are now exclusive in baseball, so they are solely responsible for supplying just enough product.
What they are to be blamed for is the way they promoted BC. Stating that USA Buybacks would be included in the product before the product hit the shelves made it seem like they would be in packs. There was no reason to believe wrapper redemptions would be the only way to get them. Topps knew when BC shipped, there was going to be some kind of promotion, but did not disclose it til a week later. The least they could have done was send a press release to keep wrappers and stay tuned for more details.

Why do people KEEP SAYING THE FALLOUT IS ONLY BECAUSE OF STRASBURG?

Get a clue. This is NOT the only reason. If you have been opening Bowman, Bowman Chrome, and Bowman Chrom Draft for years, it is apparent that the issue IS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF STRASBURG. Every case made is another case that the same amount of superfractors, red refractors, orange refractors, gold refractors, ETC are spread out between.

All of sudden you rip a case, hit ZERO Orange, 1 gold, 4 blues, and one color or Zero color autos....Guess what, that is because of OVERPRODUCTION. People feel like they got SCREWED RAW because of this, not because of Strasburg.

Please people, STOP blaming it on Strasburg. He has VERY little to do with the issues at hand.
skrip

Agreed. In the past with BC you could expect to hit at least one blue per box and the autos would fall 50/50 base/refreactor. In my case this year I hit 4 blues total and 2 refractor autos total with no color autos. OVERPRODUCTION, not strasburg, caused this.

 

[kentuckyderby]

Some bought by the case to make money
Mistake #1
That's what happens when a hobby is turned into a profession

Cannot expect to make money and be guaranteed a profit by ripping

On side note, BDP has been very good to me last few years and I feel Topps has done a very solid job with BDP over last few years

Again, if Topps blatantly lied, shame on them
If the value of Tops stuff declined due to market or because more cards are out there than you estimated, oh well

Again, how many of you (us) send money back to Topps when extra goodies included in BDP past couple years?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

 

[SportsCardMojo]

I see it as a 50/50 fault between topps and the distributors ...

Distributors and dealers are big boys and need to order responsibly, but topps are essentially the industry's grownups...

Just because the kids want to eat dessert for every meal doesn't make it best for all involved.

Shame on the dealers who over ordered...

Shame on topps for showing no self control and not telling the kids they had enough sweets...

What makes this worse is topps' unwillingness to help these dealers (extended terms, order cutting ability or return privilege on some amount of product)...

A bartender is partially legally responsible if they serve too much alcohol to someone and it results in the patrons accident... Topps has the same responsibility, in my opinion.
Judgement is everything.

BG

I honestly think this situation could not have been avoided. That's just capitalism.

I mean...if you had the hottest prospect exclusively signed to you and your first product out the gate took off like a rocket, how could you not make the most of it. Strasburg is an athlete with a limited window of opportunity. Once you miss that boat, there's no do overs. He is only a rookie once. Couple that with the rest of the strong rookie class and we all had this coming to us...Topps, dealers, retailers, collectors.

I don't think Topps had a responsibility to do anything towards the hobby. They are in the business of making money. Bottom line. They wouldn't be as big as they are if they weren't. They do not control the ebb and flow of the hobby, nor do they dictate the rules by which the hobby follows.

I would say the situation is more akin to big tobacco or beverage companies. They create products that make people happy but used incorrectly, they can kill people easily. Thus, they put a disclaimer on their products to warn people, but they can't control who buys their stuff or how much of it people want to consume. It's not their decision. They aren't holding a gun to anyone's head or banking on people getting drunk and killing people in a car accident. And if that's too extreme...then we can use Coke as an example. They use High Fuctose Corn Syrup which is believed to be the leading cause of obesity in our country. It's cheap and easy to manufature, but it's making everyone fat! Should Coke be blamed for making everyone overweight? Or the people that distribute it?

Anyway, I agree the situation sucks and everyone has a right to be upset. And the shockwaves will definitely close down some businesses and hurt many people. But in no way is this 100% Topps fault or even 50%. Everyone had a part in this debacle. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This conversation could have been totally different if Strasburg remained healthy, Heyward was ROY and Posey was MVP of the World Series. Everyone would have rode Strasburg into the sunset and we'd be preparing ourselves for next year's Harper-mania.

Topps absolutely has a reponsibility to the hobby. If they arent careful, they will not only bite the hand that feeds them, but they will decimate whats left of the industry/business. The problem is that they had the ability to "do something about this" when disaster struck. Dealers begged to reduce orders or asked for extended time to pay. Topps gave them the cold shoulder.

BG

They don't have a responsibility. They are a private company and do not answer to anyone but themselves. They are not regulated by some commission or the government. There are no bylaws or other things that restrict them from certain business practices. The only rules they have to follow are common laws setup by our own government, but those laws are broad.

Sure, if they were "SMART" about it, they would not bite the hand that feeds them. It is in their best interest to nurture the business that generates their profits. BUT, as I'm saying, you would need a ton of foresight to be able to say, "Let's not abuse this Strasburg situation and be a responsible company...even though we could really make the most of it, it would be wise for us to use caution and only make a small increase in our normal production to keep up with the current demand."

I don't disagree with you Brian...I think it was completely irresposible for them to do this. And also, if what you say is true, they should help out the distributors and so forth...it's just good business for them to do so. BUT...if no laws were broken, then what can you do? The entire hobby can say, we'll stop buying Topps products, but we all know that's not going to happen with Harper on the horizon. This hobby is built on the sport, not the card manufacturer. We want our Strasburgs, Heywards, Harpers, Pujols, Jeters, Howards, Lees, Poseys, etc.... We want our cards!!! We don't necessarily care who makes the cards. So if we don't buy from Topps, the exclusive card company for the MLB, where do we go???

It sucks...yes...but until we find a way around it, Topps has the entire hobby by it's balls. If I was business savvy enough to stick it to Topps, I'd say let's do it.

 

[Leaf]

Some bought by the case to make money
Mistake #1
That's what happens when a hobby is turned into a profession

Cannot expect to make money and be guaranteed a profit by ripping

On side note, BDP has been very good to me last few years and I feel Topps has done a very solid job with BDP over last few years

Again, if Topps blatantly lied, shame on them
If the value of Tops stuff declined due to market or because more cards are out there than you estimated, oh well

Again, how many of you (us) send money back to Topps when extra goodies included in BDP past couple years?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

As a customer of Topps (which I am, I broke multiple cases 2010 Bowman Chrome), I EXPECT not to be lied to.
I feel perfectly comfortable throwing rocks, because I too am held accountable the same way being a fellow manufacturer.
Feel free to call me out if I pull these stunts... I can tell you I have learned from any and all mistakes Ive made. The question is will they learn (or better yet, will you demand this not happen again)...... BG

 

[bmc398]

Some bought by the case to make money
Mistake #1
That's what happens when a hobby is turned into a profession

Cannot expect to make money and be guaranteed a profit by ripping

On side note, BDP has been very good to me last few years and I feel Topps has done a very solid job with BDP over last few years

Again, if Topps blatantly lied, shame on them
If the value of Tops stuff declined due to market or because more cards are out there than you estimated, oh well

Again, how many of you (us) send money back to Topps when extra goodies included in BDP past couple years?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

My Purchase was a mix. I bought to sell some of it, and keep some of it. You are basically arguing that the only people who should buy cases are the people who plan to rip it and keep everything. If that was the case, they would sell like 10 cases of this stuff.

I keep what I want (a few Braves and Tigers) and sell the rest. The point you are trying to make is hypocritical if you are in the hobby because this is what the hobby is based on.

Buy product, keep what you want and sell or trade the rest. Then buy more.

People aren't really arguing that Topps should be crucified for not allowing every dealer to win on this. People are pissed because the product simply isn't what was advertised and far from what people expect value wise from a case.

Your asking me as a single case ripper (and not for profit...too smart for that) to not be pissed that the case has about 60% of the value that a normal year of chrome would?

The issue is such because EVERYBODY but Topps got screwed in this. Casual case rippers and collectors, big distributors, Brick and Mortar, Online.....really EVERYBODY. Its not just the big rippers and flippers of product.

The right thing to do was realize that 6,000 cases was a realistic print run and allocate. This will hurt Topps bottom line. Maybe not now, but when 2011 Bowman, Chrome and other pre orders come up it will hurt. Its going to take them a long time to get trust back from this. If you don't see this as a problem for the industry, especially with them as the sole maker of baseball cards then you can't be helped.

 

[SportsCardMojo]

Its a collectible product that is very very volitile and Topps knows exactly how many boxes they have avergaed over the last several years and to triple....QUADRUPLE?......production just screams greed and not giving a shat about the Hobby or people associated with it....outside of walmart and target and k mart.

Oh, you must mean the years where other companies were also putting out cards. 2010 is a whole different ballgame on predicting production. Even with this "over-production", there is still less overall product out there than years previous.

True, but the market cannot (and probably never will again) be able to swallow 9,000-10,000 cases of an item.
BG

Maybe this is what needed to happen to correct the "HOBBY" aspect of this business. Maybe we can get back to having people collect again someday...maybe

+1

I totally agree with this.

 

[js0000001]

My read is that Topps assumed that every box of Upper deck baseball that would not be sold this year would instead be one of there boxes being sold.

 

[SportsCardMojo]

It's hard to put a lot of blame on Topps for the production. It's only termed "over production" because of the Stras fall out. Topps fulfilled orders and was using pre-orders to determine demand, since they couldn't use 09 numbers. They are now exclusive in baseball, so they are solely responsible for supplying just enough product.
What they are to be blamed for is the way they promoted BC. Stating that USA Buybacks would be included in the product before the product hit the shelves made it seem like they would be in packs. There was no reason to believe wrapper redemptions would be the only way to get them. Topps knew when BC shipped, there was going to be some kind of promotion, but did not disclose it til a week later. The least they could have done was send a press release to keep wrappers and stay tuned for more details.

Why do people KEEP SAYING THE FALLOUT IS ONLY BECAUSE OF STRASBURG?

Get a clue. This is NOT the only reason. If you have been opening Bowman, Bowman Chrome, and Bowman Chrom Draft for years, it is apparent that the issue IS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF STRASBURG. Every case made is another case that the same amount of superfractors, red refractors, orange refractors, gold refractors, ETC are spread out between.

All of sudden you rip a case, hit ZERO Orange, 1 gold, 4 blues, and one color or Zero color autos....Guess what, that is because of OVERPRODUCTION. People feel like they got SCREWED RAW because of this, not because of Strasburg.

Please people, STOP blaming it on Strasburg. He has VERY little to do with the issues at hand.
skrip

You are right, that Strasburg is not the only reason for the fallout. But this year's golden egg has been Strasburg. His influence in the card industry is far reaching. So much so, I would dare to say that because of the hype around Strasburg, other sports cards saw an uptick in prices and sales.

TC and BC failed on mainy different levels, but most of those reason somehow find it's way back to Strasburg. It's like 6 degrees of separation. So yes...pack odds suck, overproduction sucks, prices falling suck...but if we follow the trail of devestation...it somehow has a link to Strasburg. And sure...we can talk about how collectors and hobbist are not involved in this because they only buy singles...but even that somehow finds it's way back to Strasburg somehow.

I said this months back, but this hobby is funny. Even with Strasburg out of baseball for the time being, his cards are still strong. Any other 1st round pick might fall to the wayside until their return. It's almost as if people are more in love with the idea of "Strasburg" versus the player himself. Someone mentioned Beanie Babies in an earlier post. When that fad blew up, everyone went nuts....but let's not forget...it's just a stuffed animal marketed to little kids. It probably cost $1 or less to make. But collectors and opportunist treated it like GOLD!!!

That's the real Strasburg affect. Don't forget...this hobby took on probably 100% more "Collectors" this year due to Strasburg. The demographic of "Collectors and Hobbist" last year is TOTALLY different than the demographic this year. I am one of the new "Collectors" and I try to do my best to respect this hobby and it's unwritten customs and ethics. But I highly doubt everyone is like me. People keep saying that most people pre-ordered to make a profit. I pre-ordered to protect myself from having to pay double for something. I didn't want to pay Bowman Baseball prices...so I pre-ordered. That completely backfired on me. But I'm not that upset, because I would have bought it anyway...I just could have bought it cheaper.

But you are right, it's not Strasburg. But as you can see from my other post. I blame the hobby as a whole, including myself. Strasburg was just the catalyst.

 

[Leaf]

Its a collectible product that is very very volitile and Topps knows exactly how many boxes they have avergaed over the last several years and to triple....QUADRUPLE?......production just screams greed and not giving a shat about the Hobby or people associated with it....outside of walmart and target and k mart.

Oh, you must mean the years where other companies were also putting out cards. 2010 is a whole different ballgame on predicting production. Even with this "over-production", there is still less overall product out there than years previous.

True, but the market cannot (and probably never will again) be able to swallow 9,000-10,000 cases of an item.
BG

Maybe this is what needed to happen to correct the "HOBBY" aspect of this business. Maybe we can get back to having people collect again someday...maybe

+1

I totally agree with this.

Trust me, without the wholesale/distirbutor/investor/gambler side of the business being solid - you would be collecting a 2011 Topps Baseball that looked like 89 Topps (1.49 pack with no autos/ no game used/ no technology- just paper)...
The big money buyers are why the product has more than paper, make no mistake.
BG

 

[BowmanChromeAddict]

At the National in Baltimore I asked Topps about the issue of value in cases, though admittedly my slant was slightly different. I asked them if they felt any increased need to add value to Bowman Chrome because of the insane prices these cases sold for at the beginning of the pre-selling with the number of people that would be furious when their $1200 case couldn't deliver anything near that. They essentially stated no, and that it wasn't their fault it was selling so high unjustifiably. They specifically stated that they never like to see a product do what 2010 Bowman did shooting through the roof like that. Now we have a product that was pre-selling for double factory cost and is now at only 70% of factory cost. The value was never there in this product to justify the double price, but Topps always had it within their power to deliver a product that could have held steady. Just because people ordered more, they didn't have to thin out the value so dramatically. Why did Blue Refractors go from /250 to /150? Why decrease the number of prospect refractors from /777 to /500? Why continue to leave out a parallel in between? If Topps would have just held to the format of 2010 Bowman with the parallels, we'd be seeing so much more value from these cases. There was NO reason to diminish the colored parallels and crank the presses at the same time. Clearly Topps has the capacity to adds parallels (Green Xfr, Purple, etc.) they could have easily added the regular xfractors back to this product and delivered increased value. These aren't illogical concepts, I simply don't understand how those decisions can't be described as anything other than flat our greed and apathy. Bottom line, it feels like Bowman Chrome was a giant "screw you" to everyone that profited on 2010 Bowman when they didn't, yet it was 2010 Bowman that allowed them to profit dramatically on 2010 BC.

 

[SportsCardMojo]

Understood. But at the end of the day, it's all about the collectors.

I know the hobby needs the big breakers and the guys with deep pockets. But it doesn't need the extra attention it's received this year from people who have no intention to collect, but only make a profit.

I also might be wrong about this, but it might also help if all big retailers were also collectors as well. When I walked the National, some of the retailers I spoke to knew more about the product but didn't seem to care much about the collector. It's like drug dealers....they push their products, but don't use them. I think if retailers/wholesalers/distributors/manufaturers were all collectors, things may have been different this year.

 

[matfanofold]

I do understand the complaints being made by the investors here, weither it be the armchair flippers, large bust prospectors, or distribution chains / stores, ect... But I just do not think it's fair to put that blame on Topps squarely. Sure, they could have limited the product to accomidate a more traditional balance of value per box, but the demand was so high, why at that point limit production when your the only game in town, at the possible cost of neglecting possible customers?

The bottom line here is that the whole Bowman, Bowman chrome, and Bowman Chrome Draft were in concept made to fill a specific nitch, and a specific production model. Once that balance was skewed by investor demand, and the subsiquent supply by Topps, it watered down a flagship product to such an extent that we are now seeing the backlash. And again, I think Topps should have done something to equalize that out. What? I dont know..... What I do know is that this year, for Topps and collectors alike, is new territory where a sole company is tasked to supply the Hobby as a whole for MLB licensed baseball cards. Add to that a once in a generation kind of hype helping to promote "investment", an abundance of greed(on both sides), and a unwillingness for those who locked in to assume any responsability for there own actions, and we have a mess on our hands.

Clearly mistakes were made, but considering the circumstances, I believe they were unavoidable and even happenstance based on the specific outcome of many possabilities and variables that added to the flux of things that were just unforseeable. Now, do I think Topps is responsable in that they did a premeditated, harmful, and neglectful thing to our hobby on purpose and should be held accountable? Ofcourse not. But as BG overstates, I do think they have the responsability, as sole providers of MLB baseball cards, to do what they can to ease the pain of oversealous buyers, and figure out a way to prevent this from happening again. And I have little doubt that this is exactly what they are doing.

I really think lessons were learned here all the way around. And I dont think Topps shuld be held accountable for this as a 'lone shooter'.

 

[Leaf]

I do understand the complaints being made by the investors here, weither it be the armchair flippers, large bust prospectors, or distribution chains / stores, ect... But I just do not think it's fair to put that blame on Topps squarely. Sure, they could have limited the product to accomidate a more traditional balance of value per box, but the demand was so high, why at that point limit production when your the only game in town, at the possible cost of neglecting possible customers?

The bottom line here is that the whole Bowman, Bowman chrome, and Bowman Chrome Draft were in concept made to fill a specific nitch, and a specific production model. Once that balance was skewed by investor demand, and the subsiquent supply by Topps, it watered down a flagship product to such an extent that we are now seeing the backlash. And again, I think Topps should have done something to equalize that out. What? I dont know..... What I do know is that this year, for Topps and collectors alike, is new territory where a sole company is tasked to supply the Hobby as a whole for MLB licensed baseball cards. Add to that a once in a generation kind of hype helping to promote "investment", an abundance of greed(on both sides), and a unwillingness for those who locked in to assume any responsability for there own actions, and we have a mess on our hands.

Clearly mistakes were made, but considering the circumstances, I believe they were unavoidable and even happenstance based on the specific outcome of many possabilities and variables that added to the flux of things that were just unforseeable. Now, do I think Topps is responsable in that they did a premeditated, harmful, and neglectful thing to our hobby on purpose and should be held accountable? Ofcourse not. But as BG overstates, I do think they have the responsability, as sole providers of MLB baseball cards, to do what they can to ease the pain of oversealous buyers, and figure out a way to prevent this from happening again. And I have little doubt that this is exactly what they are doing.

I really think lessons were learned here all the way around. And I dont think Topps shuld be held accountable for this as a 'lone shooter'.

I agree. There is no "lone gunman", but can we agree they are a meaningful piece of the problem?
BG

 

[BowmanChromeAddict]

I do understand the complaints being made by the investors here, weither it be the armchair flippers, large bust prospectors, or distribution chains / stores, ect... But I just do not think it's fair to put that blame on Topps squarely. Sure, they could have limited the product to accomidate a more traditional balance of value per box, but the demand was so high, why at that point limit production when your the only game in town, at the possible cost of neglecting possible customers?

The bottom line here is that the whole Bowman, Bowman chrome, and Bowman Chrome Draft were in concept made to fill a specific nitch, and a specific production model. Once that balance was skewed by investor demand, and the subsiquent supply by Topps, it watered down a flagship product to such an extent that we are now seeing the backlash. And again, I think Topps should have done something to equalize that out. What? I dont know..... What I do know is that this year, for Topps and collectors alike, is new territory where a sole company is tasked to supply the Hobby as a whole for MLB licensed baseball cards. Add to that a once in a generation kind of hype helping to promote "investment", an abundance of greed(on both sides), and a unwillingness for those who locked in to assume any responsability for there own actions, and we have a mess on our hands.

Clearly mistakes were made, but considering the circumstances, I believe they were unavoidable and even happenstance based on the specific outcome of many possabilities and variables that added to the flux of things that were just unforseeable. Now, do I think Topps is responsable in that they did a premeditated, harmful, and neglectful thing to our hobby on purpose and should be held accountable? Ofcourse not. But as BG overstates, I do think they have the responsability, as sole providers of MLB baseball cards, to do what they can to ease the pain of oversealous buyers, and figure out a way to prevent this from happening again. And I have little doubt that this is exactly what they are doing.

I really think lessons were learned here all the way around. And I dont think Topps shuld be held accountable for this as a 'lone shooter'.

I kinda just spelled that out a few posts before. They stripped 100 blue refractors (250-150) out of the product just on the base set alone. That would have added 33,000 more blue refractors across the production run which would have put a minimum of 3 more blue refractors in each case. The 277 refractors (777-500) that were cut from the prospect set would have netted another 30,470 numbered prospect refractors across the run meaning another 3 prospect refractors per case. Just these 2 decisions alone would have been significant. Now add in the Xfractor at /399 and you'd add 131,670 more hits just in the base set alone. That would have put 13 more hits in a case, basically another nice colored parallel per box. Up it to /499 and you'd have 16 more hits per case. These are simple solutions that would have added significant value without a huge jump in Topps mfg cost and they wouldn't have killed the secondary market's value for those cards. If they're production costs are really in the $18-20 per box range and they were selling for $52.13, then they had plenty of room to add these without eroding a tremendous margin by very much. Then add in what an Xfractor Auto parallel would have added to the hits per case...it's significant. And I left out the effects on the other inserts. Simple decisions would have made a world of difference.

 

[Crash Davis]

I may have been a touch high, but here are estimates:

Bowman chrome - print run $6 mil
Losses (25% min) $ 1.5 million
(most of this is still sitting in warehouses
Around the country).,,,

Topps chrome - print run $4 mil
Losses (25% min) - $1 million

That's $2.5 million before topps Update..
Bg

A "touch" high? LMAO!

You said $4-5 million and now it's down to $2.5 million. Basically your numbers were MONUMENTALLY off. If you were in a political debate, your credibility would've been shot from that point forward.

Frankly, I find it humorous that you are calling out Topps for anything considering your track record with Razor.

Why don't you enlighten us as to how many of your baseball releases are selling below dealer cost. Did you offer restitution to the dealers or collectors who got their asses handed to them for Letterman or any of the other disastrous Razor prospect products that you released? How about all the collectors who bought tons of your products and lost their shirts? Did you see reps from Topps or UD or Panini come on these boards and call you out? Nope.

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

I know that I will get flamed for this and that's fine. But there needs to come a point where some of these discussions do not involve owners of competing card companies.

Shoot, even President George W. Bush declined to trash President Obama when given a golden opportunity during his sit-down interview last week, and we all know that there is certainly no love lost between those two men.

Surely if Bush can refrain from calling out Obama, then BG can stop playing Monday Morning QB with Topps.