Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated offensively?

[donrusscrusademan]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

You'll be hard pressed to find people on the baseball boards who whole-heartedly agree with you, top. The guy is flat out amazing. He's one of the few guys whose approach to every facet of the game is a true form of art. A rare 5-tool player, and if you've ever caught him taking BP you'd know he has some legitimate pop.

I would LOVE to see Ichiro in a home-run derby. Ahhh, wishful thinking...

Im with you on that, he is probably the best BP HR hitter Ive ever seen. def. should be in the HRD.

 

[daveyou]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

nope

dave

 

[coltsnsox07]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Imagine what steroids could do for him.

 

[Rickzcards]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Ichiro is one of the best ever, imagine the career numbers he would have had if he played his whole career in America. The one thing I didn't like was that after Ichiro had his success, a asian bandwagon was started. Every asian player that came along for the next few years, everyone jumped on hoping that they too would be able to carry their level of success over from when they played in Japan/Asia. Hideki Irabu, Kazuhisa Ishii, Shingo Takatsu, So Taguchi, and so on. Some had a little success but many were busts. But no matter who came along they always had more hype than most deserved.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I guess I'm in the minority lol.

Here's my thoughts, and I guess I probably should have limited my opening statement to offense (as his defense is tremendous), and of course it depends on how highly you rate him to start off with.

Ichiro's on base percentage is pretty solid at .378 at the 24th best active number. Not bad, though not all that impressive for a superstar. Consider (some of the players) who is better than him:

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Now people like to focus on the fact that hits are better than walks, because even a single has a chance to advance a runner, and there is obviously more value in an extra base hit than in a walk. The problem is that Ichiro's slugging is lower than every single player on the list of OBP who is above him, and many of them who are below him. Even if you wanted to offer added value to singles over hits for Ichiro that would not add a ton since the value is only when other runners are on (which can not happen in the first inning, and happens less often than most in other innings since his teams have been pretty weak hitting for the most part) and a decent percentage of his singles are in the infield meaning that no runners can advance.

Combine these factors and you are looking at a player whose batting average belies the fact that he's simply not a huge asset to a team at the plate (not saying he's not very good, but there are many players in baseball better.) His steals add some value, but do not make him close to as valuable as some other players.

It is for this reason that the stats that rate how much he helps his team all rate him lower than some might think.
He ranks 30th in Offensive Win Percentage, and has only once in his career finished in the top 10 in adjusted batting runs.

In the end, Ichiro is an immensely talented ballplayer whose talents are often more impressive to fans than they are helpful to his team in terms of wins. His defense obviously helps a lot, but on the offensive side, he's a solid, but not spectacular player (when it comes to helping his team win.)

So basically, if you picture Ichiro as the 30th or so best hitter in baseball he's not overrated. Any higher than that (which I think most people do) and it's hard to really argue that he's not overrated.

 

[kdailey4315]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I wouldn't say he's a 5-tool player. He doesn't hit for power when it counts. He's easily one of the best 4-tool players in baseball history, which is no knock on him. Babe Ruth was basically a 4-tool talent as well, and he's one of the top-3 players of all-time, if not the best.

I disagree with that. If he wanted to he could hit 40HR a year but ONLY bat 300. He knows that's not his job.
To answer the OP question. Hell to the NO. He's the best pure hitter since Tony Gwynn and is the best defensive right fielder since Clemente. Nobody in baseball the last 30 years can do what he does in the OF combined with an absolute cannon for an arm.

 

[kdailey4315]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Because I was comparing on base percentage. Basically what you are pointing out is the fact that not only does Ichiro not match up in HR's and RBI's, he does not even beat them in the one stat he really should, namely on base percentage.

There is nothing magical about the numbers or the different places in the line-up. 200 hits a season look nice but mean little without much OBP or SLG and Ichiro does not even get on base as often as the big boppers (and some lesser names.)

If you asked 99% of people if Ichiro is a better hitter than Jeter, Youkilis or Wright most people would say definitively yes, but based on stats it is clear that at the plate those players help their teams win more.

 

[hive17]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Also, Ichiro is a First-ballot HoF'er, and with the exception of Jeter, no one on that list is even in the HoF discussion. So comparing him to those players based on whatever metric you want to use doesn't have anything to do with how he's "rated", since I would think the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Also, Ichiro is a First-ballot HoF'er, and with the exception of Jeter, no one on that list is even in the HoF discussion. So comparing him to those players based on whatever metric you want to use doesn't have anything to do with how he's "rated", since I would think the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better.

You are refuting all the statistical evidence based on the fact that "the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better?" That's pretty weak, especially since the numbers pretty clearly show that most if not all of those players to your line-up would improve your chances of winning more than adding Ichiro.

I know it's not the popular position, but until someone uses stats to refute it, I don't it any other way.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

I wouldn't say he's a 5-tool player. He doesn't hit for power when it counts. He's easily one of the best 4-tool players in baseball history, which is no knock on him. Babe Ruth was basically a 4-tool talent as well, and he's one of the top-3 players of all-time, if not the best.

I disagree with that. If he wanted to he could hit 40HR a year but ONLY bat 300. He knows that's not his job.
To answer the OP question. Hell to the NO. He's the best pure hitter since Tony Gwynn and is the best defensive right fielder since Clemente. Nobody in baseball the last 30 years can do what he does in the OF combined with an absolute cannon for an arm.

C'mon, man. You can't give people credit for things they haven't done or don't do. The guy doesn't hit for power, so how can he possibly be a 5-tool player when that is one of the pre-requisites.

 

[matchpenalty]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Not as a singles hitter

 

[kdailey4315]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Also, Ichiro is a First-ballot HoF'er, and with the exception of Jeter, no one on that list is even in the HoF discussion. So comparing him to those players based on whatever metric you want to use doesn't have anything to do with how he's "rated", since I would think the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better.

You are refuting all the statistical evidence based on the fact that "the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better?" That's pretty weak, especially since the numbers pretty clearly show that most if not all of those players to your line-up would improve your chances of winning more than adding Ichiro.

I know it's not the popular position, but until someone uses stats to refute it, I don't it any other way.

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Bobby Abreu
Nick Johnson
Kevin Youkilis
J.D. Drew
David Wright
Travis Hafner
Derek Jeter
Matt Holliday
Adam Dunn
Chase Utley
Jorge Posada

Why are you comparing him to 3rd 4th and 5th hitters with the exception of Jeter? Of course his HR's and RBI are going to match up. He's a leadoff hitter. It's not his job to drive in runs. His job is to get on base, steal bases and score runs. That is all and he does a damn good job at that.

Also, Ichiro is a First-ballot HoF'er, and with the exception of Jeter, no one on that list is even in the HoF discussion. So comparing him to those players based on whatever metric you want to use doesn't have anything to do with how he's "rated", since I would think the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better.

You are refuting all the statistical evidence based on the fact that "the average baseball fan can look at that list and know that Ichiro is better?" That's pretty weak, especially since the numbers pretty clearly show that most if not all of those players to your line-up would improve your chances of winning more than adding Ichiro.

I know it's not the popular position, but until someone uses stats to refute it, I don't it any other way.

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

Inthe post you quoted parts of I say that I am only talking about offense. As an offensive player, despite the very flashy stats (high BA. and lots of 200 hit seasons) he's not really more of a help at the plate to his team than a guy like JD Drew, Travis Hafner or Adam Dunn.

 

[17ROCKIES12]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

No player has ever saved close to 60 runs in the field in a year.

 

[kdailey4315]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

No player has ever saved close to 60 runs in the field in a year.

You don't think that over the course of a season that Ichiro can get to balls hit that other players can't get to mainly the ones on his list?

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

No player has ever saved close to 60 runs in the field in a year.

You don't think that over the course of a season that Ichiro can get to balls hit that other players can't get to mainly the ones on his list?

Considering most are not outfielders, obviously they would not get to them, but you have to compare how many Ichiro saves compared to an average outfielder.

Regardless, the entire post was made regarding offense not defense, so it's kind or irrelevant how many runs he saves in the outfield. Even if we include the runs he saves (maybe a dozen if that many) it would not make him all that much better.

 

[kdailey4315]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

No player has ever saved close to 60 runs in the field in a year.

You don't think that over the course of a season that Ichiro can get to balls hit that other players can't get to mainly the ones on his list?

Considering most are not outfielders, obviously they would not get to them, but you have to compare how many Ichiro saves compared to an average outfielder.

Regardless, the entire post was made regarding offense not defense, so it's kind or irrelevant how many runs he saves in the outfield. Even if we include the runs he saves (maybe a dozen if that many) it would not make him all that much better.

Then change your original post or title to Is Ichiro overrated offensively since you're only talking about offense.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Re: Anyone think that Ichiro is very overrated?

Here's a stat for you. How many runs a game do those guys save? I'm sure they're not as high as Ichiro's. I isn't a stretch to say that over the course of the year he probably saves/prevents 60-70 runs a year. Wouldn't that be just as good as a RBI added to the guys you mentioned. Honestly Hafner is a DH now and a crappy one. Should he really be on this list?

No player has ever saved close to 60 runs in the field in a year.

You don't think that over the course of a season that Ichiro can get to balls hit that other players can't get to mainly the ones on his list?

Considering most are not outfielders, obviously they would not get to them, but you have to compare how many Ichiro saves compared to an average outfielder.

Regardless, the entire post was made regarding offense not defense, so it's kind or irrelevant how many runs he saves in the outfield. Even if we include the runs he saves (maybe a dozen if that many) it would not make him all that much better.

Then change your original post or title to Is Ichiro overrated offensively since you're only talking about offense.

If it makes you happy I'll change it. I did make it abundantly clear in the post and it's not like you've offered much in the way of statistical evidence about the impact of his defense. Even adding his defense in I think he's still vastly overrated (there are probably 20-30 players who have been more valuable to their teams over their careers who are playing now.)

 

[pigskincardboard]

You know who was better in the field than Ichiro? Andruw Jones.