The BEST player who will NEVER be a HOF'er...?

[predatorkj]

[quote="sheetskout":743c4zzr]Todd Helton

The stats are almost right there to be on the bubble.

Helton will be a first ballot hofer

Not necessarily but I do think he will get in.

I am convinced enough to take any wager.

People are gonna look at where he played and you'll always have the inflated stats of Coors Field problem. I think he gets in...just not necessarily first. As for Bags...he has just as many things in his favor as things that are not. I really am curious to see what the voters do. But even being a huge fan...I don't agree he gets in for sure.

Really doesn't matter where he played as they don't only play home games. Injuries slowed him down, but i think his numbers and ability to stay out of controversy will get him in there.[/quote:743c4zzr]


Man trust me...somebody will think it matters. I agree it shouldn't be the end all be all but me and you aren't everyone else.

 

[autocut]

[quote="hofautos":7m758slb][quote="sheetskout":7m758slb]Todd Helton

The stats are almost right there to be on the bubble.

Helton will be a first ballot hofer

Not necessarily but I do think he will get in.

I am convinced enough to take any wager.

People are gonna look at where he played and you'll always have the inflated stats of Coors Field problem. I think he gets in...just not necessarily first. As for Bags...he has just as many things in his favor as things that are not. I really am curious to see what the voters do. But even being a huge fan...I don't agree he gets in for sure.

Really doesn't matter where he played as they don't only play home games. Injuries slowed him down, but i think his numbers and ability to stay out of controversy will get him in there.[/quote:7m758slb]


Man trust me...somebody will think it matters. I agree it shouldn't be the end all be all but me and you aren't everyone else.[/quote:7m758slb]

He'll get in.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

He'll get in.

This is what will happen with Helton:
Led the league in H, 2B, RBI, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, TB, runs created, and WAR one year but still came in #5 in MVP.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2000.shtml#NLmvp

 

[Nate Colbert 17]

Tony Oliva belongs in the HOF.

 

[hofautos]

Todd Helton

The stats are almost right there to be on the bubble.

Helton will be a first ballot hofer

Helton shouldn't even get 25% of the vote. He is entirely a Coors Field creation. Noticed how fast his numbers went down when they went to the humidor balls.

Home: .356 .453 .627 awesome numbers
Away: .292 .393 .482 good but not HOFer numbers

Don't bore me...you don't have a clue if you don't think Helton gets in.

I guess chipper doesn't get in either based on your "method"..and he was the first one i looked up.
CHIPPER JONES HOME: .301 AWAY: .227

 

[dayracing]

most dominant pitcher of the 80's Jack Morris.

 

[SamHell]

Don't bore me...you don't have a clue if you don't think Helton gets in.

I guess chipper doesn't get in either based on your "method"..and he was the first one i looked up.
CHIPPER JONES HOME: .301 AWAY: .227

Uhhh...
Chipper Jones Career Splits
Home .315/.416/.976
Away .295/.395/.907
Chipper gets in just on his away rates

 

[matfanofold]

Don't bore me...you don't have a clue if you don't think Helton gets in.

I guess chipper doesn't get in either based on your "method"..and he was the first one i looked up.
CHIPPER JONES HOME: .301 AWAY: .227

Uhhh...
Chipper Jones Career Splits
Home .315/.416/.976
Away .295/.395/.907
Chipper gets in just on his away rates

Chipper and Helton are both close on the laddar of HOF worth in my opinion, with Chipper being a almost certain(95% sure) and Helton being a probablly(85% sure) when taking in to account the intangables that you simply can not thumb with your abacus. Just the way I see it.

 

[hofautos]

Don't bore me...you don't have a clue if you don't think Helton gets in.

I guess chipper doesn't get in either based on your "method"..and he was the first one i looked up.
CHIPPER JONES HOME: .301 AWAY: .227

Uhhh...
Chipper Jones Career Splits
Home .315/.416/.976
Away .295/.395/.907
Chipper gets in just on his away rates

Chipper and Helton are both close on the laddar of HOF worth in my opinion, with Chipper being a almost certain(95% sure) and Helton being a probablly(85% sure) when taking in to account the intangables that you simply can not thumb with your abacus. Just the way I see it.

Well at least you give Helton 85% chance of getting in...i can deal with that (Grin)....that's about I would give, and definetely worth any wager...

 

[matfanofold]

Don't bore me...you don't have a clue if you don't think Helton gets in.

I guess chipper doesn't get in either based on your "method"..and he was the first one i looked up.
CHIPPER JONES HOME: .301 AWAY: .227

Uhhh...
Chipper Jones Career Splits
Home .315/.416/.976
Away .295/.395/.907
Chipper gets in just on his away rates

Chipper and Helton are both close on the laddar of HOF worth in my opinion, with Chipper being a almost certain(95% sure) and Helton being a probablly(85% sure) when taking in to account the intangables that you simply can not thumb with your abacus. Just the way I see it.

Well at least you give Helton 85% chance of getting in...i can deal with that (Grin)....that's about I would give, and definetely worth any wager...

Anyone who can discart Heltons HOF worth straight out is clueless. He was as dominant a player as it comes for for a good 7 - 8 year span. Sure he will not have the 'lock' stats or a 20+ year career, but he was a face of the game type player, a GG, AS, SS, MVP candidate, and hitting machine for almost a decade. So, no I'm not saying he is a lock. But I do think serious consideration will be given. If there was a Hall of Really REALLY Good, he would be a lock!

 

[Halonut]

one thing to keep in mind, players of this era are most undoubtedly going to be judged different due to the PED cloud. there is no way of truly knowing who did or didn't use so the voting process will reflect that. most of the guys mentioned in this thread would be hof'ers if it were based solely upon numbers. imo, here are the only players from the era that i can see being inducted w/ little, if any doubt...

Hitters...
Griffey Jr.
Frank Thomas
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Vlad Guerrero
Albert Pujols

Pitchers...
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Mariano Rivera
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz

***note-this is not to say that others will/should not be elected, these are just the few guys who debuted during the steroid era which i believe will get in without question***

 

[hofautos]

one thing to keep in mind, players of this era are most undoubtedly going to be judged different due to the PED cloud. there is no way of truly knowing who did or didn't use so the voting process will reflect that. most of the guys mentioned in this thread would be hof'ers if it were based solely upon numbers. imo, here are the only players from the era that i can see being inducted w/ little, if any doubt...

Hitters...
Griffey Jr.
Frank Thomas
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Vlad Guerrero
Albert Pujols

Pitchers...
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Mariano Rivera
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz

The general public may not know, but I think the players know who is on the list, and they will ensure no one gets in on the list..at least that is what i believe....it is for that reason that pudge is just one example of whom i don't believe will get in. I do think you are making a mistake without having piazza, biggio, helton, trevor, and thome on your list, but time will tell....

 

[matfanofold]

one thing to keep in mind, players of this era are most undoubtedly going to be judged different due to the PED cloud. there is no way of truly knowing who did or didn't use so the voting process will reflect that. most of the guys mentioned in this thread would be hof'ers if it were based solely upon numbers. imo, here are the only players from the era that i can see being inducted w/ little, if any doubt...

Hitters...
Griffey Jr.
Frank Thomas
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Ichiro
Vlad Guerrero
Albert Pujols

Pitchers...
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Mariano Rivera
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz

***note-this is not to say that others will/should not be elected, these are just the few guys who debuted during the steroid era which i believe will get in without question***

Just curious, but did you forget Thome and Piazza? I would think that a ~600 HR hitter, and one of the greatest offensive catchers to ever play the game would be in the 'without question' catagory.

 

[Halonut]

as i said before, there are plenty of player's who could/should get in imho but i feel they will have a hard time doing so due to the era in which they played. of the guys you mentioned, here is my reasoning for them not being listed with the shoe ins...

Piazza-great hitter in his prime but ultimately a 1 sided player. if he played 20 years earlier, he'd be a first ballot guy.

Biggio-hard nosed guy, excelled in most all facets of the game and at 3 different positions. he was built like a brick ****house and being as close as he was to Bags may hurt him in the eyes of voters.

Helton-2 words...Coors Field. He was one of the best hitters in the NL for 5-6 years but the Coors Field bias is really hard to overcome. as was stated before, he couldn't even place higher than 5th in the MVP voting when putting up one of the best seasons in recent history.

Thome-i really like the guy, a true slugger in every sense of the word. if his name stays squeaky clean, he should get in. honest omission on my behalf.

Hoffman-closers have a really, really hard time getting in. i think he will be viewed as a compiler in the eyes of the voters. that is not to say that he won't eventually get in but he is by no means a shoe in.

 

[bodiaz]

Chipper Jones>>>>>>>Todd Helton


Todd Helton had a few good years early in his career heavily aided by Coors field. He has been an average player for a very long time, and does not play a premium position defensively. I would not vote for Helton, I would vote for Chipper.

 

[Anthony K.]

as i said before, there are plenty of player's who could/should get in imho but i feel they will have a hard time doing so due to the era in which they played. of the guys you mentioned, here is my reasoning for them not being listed with the shoe ins...

Piazza-great hitter in his prime but ultimately a 1 sided player. if he played 20 years earlier, he'd be a first ballot guy.

Biggio-hard nosed guy, excelled in most all facets of the game and at 3 different positions. he was built like a brick ****house and being as close as he was to Bags may hurt him in the eyes of voters.

Helton-2 words...Coors Field. He was one of the best hitters in the NL for 5-6 years but the Coors Field bias is really hard to overcome. as was stated before, he couldn't even place higher than 5th in the MVP voting when putting up one of the best seasons in recent history.

Thome-i really like the guy, a true slugger in every sense of the word. if his name stays squeaky clean, he should get in. honest omission on my behalf.

Hoffman-closers have a really, really hard time getting in. i think he will be viewed as a compiler in the eyes of the voters. that is not to say that he won't eventually get in but he is by no means a shoe in.

By making those two comments, you are saying that 3,000 hits and 500 (possibly 600) home runs are no longer Hall of Fame benchmarks.

Do you agree with that? I do believe they would be the only players at their prospective level of achievements (hits/hrs) not to be in the Hall if they didn't make it.

 

[Dice-K Collector]

as i said before, there are plenty of player's who could/should get in imho but i feel they will have a hard time doing so due to the era in which they played. of the guys you mentioned, here is my reasoning for them not being listed with the shoe ins...

Piazza-great hitter in his prime but ultimately a 1 sided player. if he played 20 years earlier, he'd be a first ballot guy.

Biggio-hard nosed guy, excelled in most all facets of the game and at 3 different positions. he was built like a brick ****house and being as close as he was to Bags may hurt him in the eyes of voters.

Helton-2 words...Coors Field. He was one of the best hitters in the NL for 5-6 years but the Coors Field bias is really hard to overcome. as was stated before, he couldn't even place higher than 5th in the MVP voting when putting up one of the best seasons in recent history.

Thome-i really like the guy, a true slugger in every sense of the word. if his name stays squeaky clean, he should get in. honest omission on my behalf.

Hoffman-closers have a really, really hard time getting in. i think he will be viewed as a compiler in the eyes of the voters. that is not to say that he won't eventually get in but he is by no means a shoe in.

By making those two comments, you are saying that 3,000 hits and 500 (possibly 600) home runs are no longer Hall of Fame benchmarks.

Do you agree with that? I do believe they would be the only players at their prospective level of achievements (hits/hrs) not to be in the Hall if they didn't make it.

Biggio is a first-ballot HOFer

 

[Austin]

a fistful of steroid users
pete rose
roberto alomar
don mattingly
edgar martinez

Do you seriously think Alomar will never get in the Hall of Fame, as the topic title asks?
Alomar received 73.7% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. A player needs 75% to get in.
He's a shoo-in to make the Hall.

 

[hofautos]

as i said before, there are plenty of player's who could/should get in imho but i feel they will have a hard time doing so due to the era in which they played. of the guys you mentioned, here is my reasoning for them not being listed with the shoe ins...

Piazza-great hitter in his prime but ultimately a 1 sided player. if he played 20 years earlier, he'd be a first ballot guy.

Biggio-hard nosed guy, excelled in most all facets of the game and at 3 different positions. he was built like a brick ****house and being as close as he was to Bags may hurt him in the eyes of voters.

Helton-2 words...Coors Field. He was one of the best hitters in the NL for 5-6 years but the Coors Field bias is really hard to overcome. as was stated before, he couldn't even place higher than 5th in the MVP voting when putting up one of the best seasons in recent history.

Thome-i really like the guy, a true slugger in every sense of the word. if his name stays squeaky clean, he should get in. honest omission on my behalf.

Hoffman-closers have a really, really hard time getting in. i think he will be viewed as a compiler in the eyes of the voters. that is not to say that he won't eventually get in but he is by no means a shoe in.

By making those two comments, you are saying that 3,000 hits and 500 (possibly 600) home runs are no longer Hall of Fame benchmarks.

Do you agree with that? I do believe they would be the only players at their prospective level of achievements (hits/hrs) not to be in the Hall if they didn't make it.

Biggio is a first-ballot HOFer

He is implying that biggio did steroids since he was close to bagwell...3000 hits won't get you in if bonds aint in, if you did steroids...that is what he is saying.
I think biggio escapes that speculation though.

 

[hofautos]

a fistful of steroid users
pete rose
roberto alomar
don mattingly
edgar martinez

Do you seriously think Alomar will never get in the Hall of Fame, as the topic title asks?
Alomar received 73.7% of the vote in his first year of eligibility. A player needs 75% to get in.
He's a shoo-in to make the Hall.

Whoa, I didn't know that...thanks...glad to hear it...i don't think one incident should keep anyone out...but I also believe rose deserves to be in.